5, 5, 47

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Constantinus Philo
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5, 5, 47

Post by Constantinus Philo »

ἀλλ᾽ ὡς τοὺς πεπεισμένους ὑφ᾽ ἑκάστου δήλους ἐσομένους οἷς ἂν πράττωσιν οὕτω παρασκευάζεσθε.
There is something wrong here, maybe it is like that: οὕτω παρασκευάζεσθε ὡς τοὺς πεπεισμένους ὑφ᾽ ἑκάστου δήλους ἔσεσθαι οἷς ἂν πράττωσιν.
Οκ Σμ has it in 2276, Still can fut inf be used here? or just present inf?
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phalakros
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Re: 5, 5, 47

Post by phalakros »

It’s acc absolute with ὡς + ptcp, often used with impersonal verbs but also with personal ones as here. A type of implied indirect statement

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Constantinus Philo
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Re: 5, 5, 47

Post by Constantinus Philo »

the second part is also in Acc abs? It is difficult to understand, too many participles here for Acc abs.
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Re: 5, 5, 47

Post by phalakros »

ὡς τοὺς πεπεισμένους…ἐσομένους is an acc abs. The more familiar type of acc abs involves impersonal verbs. This construction is different. It can use personal verbs and involves implied indirect discourse. It’s regularly introduced with ὡς. Here’s an example from Xenophon’s Memorabilia:

δι’ ὃ καὶ τοὺς υἱεῖς οἱ πατέρες, κἂν ὦσι σώφρονες, ὅμως ἀπὸ τῶν πονηρῶν ἀνθρώπων εἴργουσιν, ὡς τὴν μὲν τῶν χρηστῶν ὁμιλίαν ἄσκησιν οὖσαν τῆς ἀρετῆς, τὴν δὲ τῶν πονηρῶν κατάλυσιν.

The clause introduced by ὡς (“thinking that,” “on the grounds that”) is an acc abs: “…(thinking that) association with good men…” Similar to eg εἴργουσι νομίζοντες τὴν ὁμιλίαν…εἶναι.

Similarly in your passage, “prepare yourselves, thinking that/with the understanding that those who have been persuaded…”

This construction can also have ὡς + impersonal verbs. Eg ὡς ἀκουστέον ὄν, οὕτω τὴν γνώμην ἔχετε (make up your mind that it is necessary to hear).

A closely related correlative construction is with ὡς + gen abs. Eg ὡς καὶ ἡμῶν πολεμησόντων, οὕτω τὴν γνώμην ἔχετε (be sure that we too will fight).

Make sense?

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Constantinus Philo
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Re: 5, 5, 47

Post by Constantinus Philo »

Thank you, I think it is clear to me now; still, this ὡς, what is it: 'as', 'that'? Since it is correlated with οὕτως, I would imagine it means literally 'as'.
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Re: 5, 5, 47

Post by phalakros »

Yes, it is correlative, ὡς…οὕτως. Eg ὡς καὶ ἡμῶν πολεμησόντων οὕτω τὴν γνώμην ἔχετε, lit. “as we too will fight, so be sure.” More idiomatically translated as if indirect discourse, “be sure that we too will fight” (similar to εὖ ἴστε ὅτι καὶ ἡμεῖς πολεμήσομεν).

The related construction in …εἴργουσιν, ὡς τὴν μὲν τῶν χρηστῶν ὁμιλίαν ἄσκησιν οὖσαν τῆς ἀρετῆς...is not correlative, ὡς here introducing the thought of the subject of εἴργουσιν (“since, as they thought,” “thinking that,” “on the grounds that”).

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Constantinus Philo
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Re: 5, 5, 47

Post by Constantinus Philo »

I see it now, thank you, but I will need more examples to be able to recognize it myself. The examples that Sm provides are too few and easy.
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Re: 5, 5, 47

Post by phalakros »

As it should be—Smyth is just a teaser for the niceties of Greek idiom and syntax. You might look next at Goodwin MT, Kühner-Gerth, Donovan’s Theory of Advanced Greek Prose Composition, or Gildersleeve’s syntax. I remember a good collection of examples in one of Jebb’s Sophocles commentaries but I don’t have the citation handy unfortunately. A memorable example I always think of first comes at the beginning of the Republic, something close to ὡς μὴ ἀκουσομένων οὕτω διανοεῖσθε.

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Re: 5, 5, 47

Post by jeidsath »

I forget where I read the discussion about accusative absolutes that concentrates on that Memorabilia passage. I think it's K-G? But it could have been Donovan, of whom I'm also a great fan, for at least the gusto of it. But wherever it was, the thing that I disliked was calling it a "construction" in the same way that ὡς + gen. abs. is a construction. There always seems to be something outside the phrase motivating the accusative in this sort of thing (which is entirely different from the similarly named "accusative absolute" of things like πάρον and ἔξον). With gen. abs. it seems a bit more independent of what's immediately outside the phrase.
"Here stuck the great stupid boys, who for the life of them could never master the accidence..."

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Constantinus Philo
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Re: 5, 5, 47

Post by Constantinus Philo »

Thanks for Donovan, I got the first two volumes from your links. What about the third volume? How exactly is Donovan helpful? Will it improve my understanding of Greek texts more ads compared to Sm?
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Re: 5, 5, 47

Post by phalakros »

Here are links to all three volumes:

https://archive.org/details/theoryofadv ... 5/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/theoryofadv ... 4/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/theoryofadv ... t/mode/2up

Donovan provides good examples and exposition about some of the finer points of Greek syntax and idiom in a relatively concise way. Several of these points aren’t covered well in Smyth (and often not at all in CGCG). Unfortunately, it’s not easy to navigate. It won’t be as helpful to you as Goodwin’s MT and the other grammars. Its main value is to illustrate the differences between (an outdated form of) English and Greek idiom for the purposes of advanced Greek prose composition.

He covers the personal accusative absolute in section 242 (vol. II: 196), with only two examples, one of which we’ve already discussed. You might find it helpful to read through Chapter VI on the different uses of participles. But I would prioritize just reading lots of Greek with precision, as you seem to be doing already. That’s the best way to improve your understanding of the language.

Have you read much Plato? He might be ideal after all this Xenophon.

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Constantinus Philo
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Re: 5, 5, 47

Post by Constantinus Philo »

I have read Symp, Crito, Meno, Prot, Phaed, Ap, Io, Crat,, and a few others I guess. I have to re-read Phaidr.
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