Is this translated correctly?

Latin after CDLXXVI
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pmda
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Is this translated correctly?

Post by pmda »

Jon Solomon's translation of Boccaccio's The Genealogy of the Pagan Gods offers the following for the 2nd sentence of the opening of Chapter 7, Book 4 (pp. 442-3)

Dyrces Solis fuit filia et Lyci regis Thebarum coniunx. In quam sicuti in ceteras Solis filias Venerem sevisse dicit Fulgentius.

..."Fulgentius says that Venus was angry at her, just as she was at the other daughters of Sun".

I have no clue how he gets this translation from the text. The text seems to me to be an aside to the effect that: "Fulgentius says that Venus sowed the other daughters of the sun in like manner" - i.e. they were similarly born out of wedlock or, in common parlance, because Sun was in the habit of stepping out (!).

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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by bedwere »

It's the Medieval spelling of saevio

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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by pmda »

Ha! Thanks.

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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by mwh »

If it meant she “sowed the other daughters” it wouldn’t be In quam sicuti in ceteras filias.

But I'm only posting because Dyrces caught my eye. That must be a mistake (a typo?) for Dyrce = Dirce, fem.nom.sing., the Theban spring. Ovid has a great tale of how Phaethon, driving the chariot of the Sun, lost control of the horses and came so close to the earth that all the springs and rivers were dried up:
Tum facta est Libye raptis umoribus aestu
arida, tum nymphae passis fontesque lacusque
deflevere comis: quaerit Boeotia Dircen,
Argos Amymonen, Ephyre Pirenidas undas.
(Ov.Met.2.239)

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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by pmda »

mwh, many thanks. Yes I've read the Ovid tale. The Dirce here refers presumably to the well or fountain at Thebes into which Antiope was transformed, right?

The spelling and form, Dyrces, I posted was Boccaccio's and from other uses in the passage appears to be a medieval (?) form in the 3rd declension.

Boccaccio's passage also has 'in Dyrcem' and '...cum viderentur Dyrci'.

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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by mwh »

Dirce is a spring, but Antiope was not transformed into it. The myths do get a bit muddled though.

Dyrce(Dirce) has to be 1st declension (Ovid likes to use the Greek forms, e.g. Dircen accusative), and Dyrces in Boccaccio’s text must be meant to be Dyrce, nominative, as I indicated. Your reported '...cum viderentur Dyrci’ looks corrupt too, but I don’t know the context.

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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by pmda »

Does Boccaccio's use not suggest that he treats it as a third declension noun - like princeps? The short passage in his genealogy of the pagan gods appears to have the 1st, 3rd and 5th? forms below.

Dyrces, Dyrces, Dyrcem, Dyrcis, Dyrci, Dyrce

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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by mwh »

And what case are these supposed to be? You need grammatical context.

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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by pmda »

These endings suggest a third detention a noun...?

Dyrces* Solis fuit filia et Lyci regis Thebarum coniunx. In quam sicuti in ceteras Solis filias Venerem sevisse dicit Fulgentius. De qua talis fertur hystoria. Stuprata per vim Anthiopa, Nictei regis filia, ab Epapho, ut placet Lactantio, seu aIove, ut plures videntur arbitrari, a Lyco Thebatum rege marito suo abdictata est, et super inducta Dyrces*. Que illico suspicata ne forte Lycus Anthiopam in suam revolcaret gratiam et sic, ea reassumpta, dimicteretur ipsa, impetravit a viro ut posset illam in vinculis detinere. Que cum ex Iove prolem gemimam suscepisset, partus adveniente tempore, ab eio vinculis liberata est, et clam in Cytheronem montem aufugit, ibique peperit Amphyonem et Zethum, quos expositos pastor quidam pro suis aluit. Qui cum adolevissent, a matre cogniti, et sui generis certiores facti, facile in Dyrcem* irratati sunt, et in matris ultionem surgentes Lycum occiderunt regem, et Dyrcem* tauro indomito alligarunt, qui dum eam traheret, misera deorum auxilium imploravit, quorum subsitio in fontem sui nominis haud longe a Thebis mutata est, et sic eneris satiavit iram.

Quod autem in hac hystoria fabulosum est, explicabitur facile. Antiopam a Iove tempore partus liberatam a carcere dicit Theodontius ideo fictum, quia cum videretur Dyrci* ob tumidum Anthyope muterum satis sui adulterii testimonium apparere, et ob id eam viro arbitraretur odiosam merito, ultro eam rliquit. Dyrcem* autem mutatam in fontem satis comprehendi potest, tam ob perditum regnum quam ob supplicii illati penam, eam in multas solutam lacrimas.

Fuisse autem Solis filiam ideo dictum, quia aut sic de facto fuit eam alicuius insignis viri sic nominati fuisse filiam, aut ob insignem eius pulchritudinem solis filiam vocitatam.

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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by mwh »

This has too many typos. Most of it is intelligible and readily corrected (e.g. eneris at end of first para.), but not all.

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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by pmda »

I'm cutting and pasting and errors are appearing in the pasting. I will take a look and paste a more accurate version.

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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by pmda »

Look at the endings which have asterisks. These would seem to be 3rd declension nouns.

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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by jeidsath »

1511 edition. If it was Greek, I would wonder if there had been some confusion between the similar Λυκος and Διρκη.

Image
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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by pmda »

How do I attach a file / image to a reply on this forum?

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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by jeidsath »

pmda wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:15 pm How do I attach a file / image to a reply on this forum?
For images, I always upload to imgur.com and then right-click for "copy image address", which gives you something like:

https://i.imgur.com/q7QhZd2.png (notice the ".png" at the end)

And then enclose in "img" tags for the final result:

Code: Select all

[img]https://i.imgur.com/q7QhZd2.png[/img]
"Here stuck the great stupid boys, who for the life of them could never master the accidence..."

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by mwh »

Dirce was Lycus’ wife. There’s no confusion between them.

I’ve read through the Latin. Other than pmda’s many typos there’s hardly anything that’s at all troublesome. But Dirce’s name is given—in the nominative—not as Dirce (or Dyrce, insignificant variant spelling) but as Dirces, both as the first word and again later. I don't have an explanation for this. Does Jon Solomon?

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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by jeidsath »

mwh wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:59 pm Dirce was Lycus’ wife. There’s no confusion between them.
Of course they are husband and wife. That's the entire point. The suggestion was that some Latin author (or printer?) had seen some Greek text which had ΔΙΡΚΗ and ΛΥΚΟΣ in close proximity, as is likely, had misread it due to the similarity of ΔΙΡΚ and ΛΥΚ (especially that Δ/Λ) and created the nominative Dyrces. It's not a suggestion that needs to be belabored, nor is it especially likely, but you force me to clear up the misunderstanding here.
"Here stuck the great stupid boys, who for the life of them could never master the accidence..."

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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by pmda »

Here's the text with typos removed. but to be sure I also link to photos of the text as given in Solomon.

Dyrces Solis fuit filia et Lyci regis Thebarum coniunx. In quam sicuti in ceteras Solis filias Venerem sevisse dicit Fulgentius. De qua talis fertur hystoria. Stuprata per vim Anthiopa, Nictei regis filia, ab Epapho, ut placet Lactantio, seu a Iove, ut plures videntur arbitrari, a Lyco Thebatum rege marito suo abdictata est, et super inducta Dyrces. Que illico suspicata ne forte Lycus Anthiopam in suam revocaret gratiam et sic, ea reassumpta, dimicteretur ipsa, impetravit a viro ut posset illam in vinculis detinere. Que cum ex Iove prolem gemimam suscepisset, partus adveniente tempore, ab eo vinculis liberata est, et clam in Cytheronem montem aufugit, ibique peperit Amphyonem et Zethum, quos expositos pastor quidam pro suis aluit. Qui cum adolevissent, a matre cogniti, et sui generis certiores facti, facile in Dyrcem irritati sunt, et in matris ultionem surgentes Lycum occiderunt regem, et Dyrcem tauro indomito alligarunt, qui dum eam traheret, misera deorum auxilium imploravit, quorum subsidio in fontem sui nominis haud longe a Thebis mutata est, et sic Veneris satiavit iram.

Quod autem in hac hystoria fabulosum est, explicabitur facile. Antiopam a Iove tempore partus liberatam a carcere dicit Theodontius ideo fictum, quia cum videretur Dyrci ob tumidum Anthyope uterum satis sui adulterii testimonium apparere, et ob id eam viro arbitraretur odiosam merito, ultro eam rliquit. Dyrcem autem mutatam in fontem satis comprehendi potest, tam ob perditum regnum quam ob supplicii illati penam, eam in multas solutam lacrimas.

Fuisse autem Solis filiam ideo dictum, quia aut sic de facto fuit eam alicuius insignis viri sic nominati fuisse filiam, aut ob insignem eius pulchritudinem solis filiam vocitatam.

Link 1) https://photos.app.goo.gl/6o7XJYpNLBaB7MdA6

Link 2) https://photos.app.goo.gl/6o7XJYpNLBaB7MdA6

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Re: Is this translated correctly?

Post by mwh »

You do well to link to photos of the edited text, since you've eliminated most but not all of your typos.
As I noted, Dirce’s name is given as Dirces, very surprisingly, and patently in error. My question was whether Jon Solomon, who edited the text in the I Tatti series, had an explanation.
The text has hardly any other mistakes.

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