ετρεψα or ετραπον

Here you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Greek, and more.
Post Reply
Asterisk1234
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:19 pm
Location: Toronto

ετρεψα or ετραπον

Post by Asterisk1234 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:16 am

These two words are given (in Mastronarde p. 403) as being the third principal part of τρεπω. One seems to be strong aorist and the other the weak aorist. Am I right? And is there any difference in meaning?
Thanks to all.

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 3328
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Post by mwh » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:20 am

That's right. They differ in usage.

User avatar
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1122
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:29 pm

τρέπω, Il.8.399, etc.: fut. τρέψω 15.261, etc.: aor. 1 ἔτρεψα 18.469, etc., Ep. τρέψα 16.645: besides aor. 1 Hom. has aor. 2 ἔτρᾰπον, Od.4.294, al., also Pi.O.10(11).15 (sts. also intr., v. περιτρέπω II and perh. Il.16.657, cf. III fin.): Aeol. aor. ἔτροπον

Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon (p. 1813). Oxford: Clarendon Press.

There is no difference in meaning. By "difference in usage" MWH appears to mean that the 2nd aorist ἔτραπον is nearly exclusive to Homer (note also reference in Pindar).
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 826
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Post by seneca2008 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:03 pm

M. p 134

"The strong aorist active ἔτραπον, from τρέπω, is poetic and intransitive in sense, but the middle, ἐτραπόμην, is used in Attic with the intransitive meaning turn."

This is not to contradict anyone but to show that the answers to questions can often be found in M.'s text itself. No harm in asking here though. :D

User avatar
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1122
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:46 pm

seneca2008 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:03 pm
M. p 134

"The strong aorist active ἔτραπον, from τρέπω, is poetic and intransitive in sense, but the middle, ἐτραπόμην, is used in Attic with the intransitive meaning turn."

This is not to contradict anyone but to show that the answers to questions can often be found in M.'s text itself. No harm in asking here though. :D
No harm in being corrected! However, in Pin. Od. 10.15, τράπε δὲ Κύκνεια μάχα καὶ ὑπέρβιον Ἡρακλέα, (ἐ)τράπε is pretty clearly transitive.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

Asterisk1234
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:19 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Post by Asterisk1234 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:15 pm

Well... my question was about the weak aorist vs the strong aorist of τρεπω, not about the difference between the active voice and the middle voice of the strong aorist ετραπον (as mentioned on M p134). So I am still not clear on the difference between the strong aorist (ετραπον) and the weak aorist (ετρεψα). Or am I hopelessly confused as usual...?

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 826
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Post by seneca2008 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:31 pm

Asterisk1234 wrote:Well... my question was about the weak aorist vs the strong aorist of τρεπω
I am sorry I thought you had your answer to that.

M. is saying that the strong aorist is poetic and intransitive (although Barry has an example he thinks is transitive in Pindar). The implication is that the weak aorist is used in prose. Goodwin 714. confirms that ἔτραπον is epic and lyric.

I quoted what M. said about the middle for completeness I didn't mean to confuse you.

Asterisk1234
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:19 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Post by Asterisk1234 » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:32 pm

OK, I think get it now.
Thanks.

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 3328
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Post by mwh » Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:49 pm

Does Mastronarde really say that the strong aorist active ἔτραπον is intransitive in sense? That’s wrong. It’s routinely transitive. I guess that’s what he meant to say.

(LSJ’s Pindar reference fastened on by Barry is not “Od.” but “O.”, the Olympians, and there’s nothing remarkable about it.)

User avatar
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1122
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:43 am

mwh wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:49 pm
Does Mastronarde really say that the strong aorist active ἔτραπον is intransitive in sense? That’s wrong. It’s routinely transitive. I guess that’s what he meant to say.

(LSJ’s Pindar reference fastened on by Barry is not “Od.” but “O.”, the Olympians, and there’s nothing remarkable about it.)
I cited it as an example of the transitive usage of the second aorist, in response to M.'s claim that that it was intransitive. Besides, Pindar.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 3328
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Post by mwh » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:36 pm

mwh wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:49 pm
Does Mastronarde really say that the strong aorist active ἔτραπον is intransitive in sense? That’s wrong. It’s routinely transitive. I guess that’s what he meant to say.

(LSJ’s Pindar reference fastened on by Barry is not “Od.” but “O.”, the Olympians, and there’s nothing remarkable about it.)
Could someone please take a look at the book and answer my question? I gave away my own copy, so I can’t check for myself. If that’s what the book actually says (but I suspect a copying error), Prof. Mastronarde and the publisher should be alerted to the mistake so that it can be corrected in the next printing.
Last edited by mwh on Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 3314
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Post by jeidsath » Wed Oct 02, 2019 3:42 pm

Image
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 3328
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Post by mwh » Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:15 pm

Thanks Joel. It’s clear from the run of the sentence alone (not to mention Greek usage!) that “poetic and transitive” was meant, contrasting with Attic’s intransitive use of the middle (in prose as well as verse). And a look at LSJ would confirm that ἔτραπον is routinely transitive, as one would expect. I’m rather shocked that no-one here seems to have realized that something was amiss.

User avatar
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1122
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:08 pm

Seneca wrote:M. is saying that the strong aorist is poetic and intransitive (although Barry has an example he thinks is transitive in Pindar).
Thinks? It's clearly transitive.
MWH wrote:Thanks Joel. It’s clear from the run of the sentence alone (not to mention Greek usage!) that “poetic and transitive” was meant, contrasting with Attic’s intransitive use of the middle (in prose as well as verse). And a look at LSJ would confirm that ἔτραπον is routinely transitive, as one would expect. I’m rather shocked that no-one here seems to have realized that something was amiss.
Again, that's why I posted the Pindar, to show that there was at least one transitive usage out there. I took M.'s statement at face value, but it does look like a typo.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 408
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Post by Aetos » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:10 pm

I checked on Mastronarde's website (atticgreek.org) to see if perhaps he lists the error in his corrigenda lists, but no joy.
This is an email addresse for him (I don't know if it's current):
djmastronarde@berkeley.edu

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 826
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: ετρεψα or ετραπον

Post by seneca2008 » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:25 pm

Well there is a moral here that one has to be alert to errors in textbooks. Just as well mwh was alert to the error in what I was quoting.

Barry don’t get too exercised about “thinks”. I was not doubting what you were saying.! :D

Post Reply