Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Are you reading Homeric Greek? Whether you are a total beginner or an advanced Homerist, here you can meet kindred spirits. Besides Homer, use this board for all things early Greek poetry.
Post Reply
seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by seanjonesbw » Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:58 pm

Welcome to the Odyssey Reading Group! Anyone is welcome to join in at any time, regardless of their Greek ability. If you’re itching to explore Homer’s epic tale of survival, adventure, love, lust, kinship, betrayal and spooky dead people, hop on in, you’ll be very welcome. People who have some Greek but have never tried reading Homer before are doubly welcome.

Check the introductory thread for a description of how the group works.

We’re working from Geoffrey Steadman’s Odyssey Books 6-8, a freely-available pdf with vocabulary and notes
Resources
Show
An introduction to Book 6 and a list of resources for deeper study are available in the group dropbox folder
Next week (Friday 6th September) we’ll be reading Book 6 Lines 295-315
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by seanjonesbw » Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:02 pm

I've included more verses this week to make up for lost time while I was away.
Click for lines 262-294
Show
262 αὐτὰρ ἐπὴν πόλιος ἐπιβήομεν ἣν πέρι πύργος 263 ὑψηλός, καλὸς δὲ λιμὴν ἑκάτερθε πόληος, 264 λεπτὴ δ ̓ εἰσίθμη· νῆες δ ̓ ὁδὸν ἀμφιέλισσαι 265 εἰρύαται· πᾶσιν γὰρ ἐπίστιόν ἐστιν ἑκάστῳ. 266 ἔνθα δέ τέ σφ ̓ ἀγορὴ καλὸν Ποσιδήϊον ἀμφίς, 267 ῥυτοῖσιν λάεσσι κατωρυχέεσσ ̓ ἀραρυῖα. 268 ἔνθα δὲ νηῶν ὅπλα μελαινάων ἀλέγουσι, 269 πείσματα καὶ σπεῖρα, καὶ ἀποξύνουσιν ἐρετμά. 279 οὐ γὰρ Φαιήκεσσι μέλει βιὸς οὐδὲ φαρέτρη, 271 ἀλλ ̓ ἱστοὶ καὶ ἐρετμὰ νεῶν καὶ νῆες ἐῖσαι, 272 ᾗσιν ἀγαλλόμενοι πολιὴν περόωσι θάλασσαν. 273 τῶν ἀλεείνω φῆμιν ἀδευκέα, μή τις ὀπίσσω 274 μωμεύῃ· μάλα δ ̓ εἰσὶν ὑπερφίαλοι κατὰ δῆμον· 275 καί νύ τις ὧδ ̓ εἴπῃσι κακώτερος ἀντιβολήσας· 276 ‘τίς δ ̓ ὅδε Ναυσικάᾳ ἕπεται καλός τε μέγας τε 277 ξεῖνος; ποῦ δέ μιν εὗρε; πόσις νύ οἱ ἔσσεται αὐτῇ. 278 ἦ τινά που πλαγχθέντα κομίσσατο ἧς ἀπὸ νηὸς 279 ἀνδρῶν τηλεδαπῶν, ἐπεὶ οὔ τινες ἐγγύθεν εἰσίν· 280 ἤ τίς οἱ εὐξαμένῃ πολυάρητος θεὸς ἦλθεν 281 οὐρανόθεν καταβάς, ἕξει δέ μιν ἤματα πάντα. 282 βέλτερον, εἰ καὐτή περ ἐποιχομένη πόσιν εὗρεν 283 ἄλλοθεν· ἦ γὰρ τούσδε γ ̓ ἀτιμάζει κατὰ δῆμον 284 Φαίηκας, τοί μιν μνῶνται πολέες τε καὶ ἐσθλοί. ̓ 285 ὣς ἐρέουσιν, ἐμοὶ δέ κ ̓ ὀνείδεα ταῦτα γένοιτο. 286 καὶ δ ̓ ἄλλῃ νεμεσῶ, ἥ τις τοιαῦτά γε ῥέζοι, 287 ἥ τ ̓ ἀέκητι φίλων πατρὸς καὶ μητρὸς ἐόντων, 288 ἀνδράσι μίσγηται, πρίν γ ̓ ἀμφάδιον γάμον ἐλθεῖν. 289 ξεῖνε, σὺ δ ̓ ὦκ ̓ ἐμέθεν ξυνίει ἔπος, ὄφρα τάχιστα 290 πομπῆς καὶ νόστοιο τύχῃς παρὰ πατρὸς ἐμοῖο. 291 δήεις ἀγλαὸν ἄλσος Ἀθήνης ἄγχι κελεύθου 292 αἰγείρων· ἐν δὲ κρήνη νάει, ἀμφὶ δὲ λειμών· 293 ἔνθα δὲ πατρὸς ἐμοῦ τέμενος τεθαλυῖά τ ̓ ἀλωή, 294 τόσσον ἀπὸ πτόλιος ὅσσον τε γέγωνε βοήσας.
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by seanjonesbw » Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:57 pm

Lines 276-284 are completely beguiling and there's lots to talk about here - what are we to make of the fact that Nausicaa chooses to introduce her own name by means of this 'impersonation'?
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

User avatar
Paul Derouda
Global Moderator
Posts: 2132
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by Paul Derouda » Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:20 pm

seanjonesbw wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:57 pm
Lines 276-284 are completely beguiling and there's lots to talk about here - what are we to make of the fact that Nausicaa chooses to introduce her own name by means of this 'impersonation'?
Isn't it what it's looks like? She is flirting with Odysseus, telling him indirectly that she hasn't found a husband to her liking among the locals, and even implies that she just might consider him eligible.

ποῦ δέ μιν εὗρε; πόσις νύ οἱ ἔσσεται αὐτῇ – I think this implies that Nausicaa had at least some agency in choosing her husband, even if this is just a hypothetical taunt and even though marriages were arranged by the family.

ἀνδράσι μίσγηται – this I find interesting. This is a double entendre and in my opinion, there is no way that the poet didn't intentionally mean it to be so. μίσγεσθαι means "to be in contact with", and the surface meaning of the word here is just that, that she shouldn't socialize with men before she's married - but μίσγεσθαι is also the regular word for "have sex", and what she basically says can also be read that she shouldn't have sex with men before getting married. We had this same double entendre with μίσγεσθαι before in the Nausicaa episode, on line 136, which I think shows even more clearly that this is relevant. I believe it's a joke that's supposed to amuse a predominantly male audience, but what does it exactly mean? I can think of two possible explanations. Probably it just means that we're supposed to imagine Nausicaa as someone very young and innocent, saying naughty things without noticing it herself. But there's another possibility that comes to mind, less likely but not impossible: maybe we should imagine her using sexual innuendo intentionally; in that case, the male audience is supposed to think about all those coy smiles and other tricks that womankind (allegedly) makes use of to trap them, even the ones who are youngest and purest and most Artemis-like.

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 3244
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by jeidsath » Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:44 am

I'm not sure about the male audience thing. The music in α seemed to filter up to the θάλαμος well enough, and Penelope seemed familiar with the songs.

Perhaps I misunderstand 286-288, but doesn't νεμεσῶ have the same root as νεμεσις? "And I would quarrel with another woman, whoever did this sort of thing"? It seems like exactly the word that a proper lady would use to describe an unmarried woman consorting with males, with all its undertones very much implied. It's never men that are the guardians of a community's sexual mores.

But if I misread it, someone should correct me.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

User avatar
Paul Derouda
Global Moderator
Posts: 2132
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by Paul Derouda » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:28 am

Well, if Homer and the Odyssey is to be taken as evidence, the aoidos does perform to a predominantly male audience. Doesn't the fact that Penelope is in her room when he sings precisely show that she is not part of the intended audience? Her knowing the stories is another thing altogether. I think the other Homeric banquets with a performing bard are a predominantly male affair as well (in one episode we have the feeling that Arete was dining with the men when Odysseus arrives to Alcinous, but there's no question of a bard in there).

I don't think you understood the point I was trying to make. Of course what Nausicaa is saying is, at least on the surface, a moralizing platitude. My point was that ἀνδράσι μίσγηται has, in this context, the meaning "to be in contact in men", but the other idea, "to have sex with men", is too obvious to be a blunder from the part of the poet. A well-educated 15-year-old girl isn't supposed to talk so plainly about sex to a middle-aged strange man, it would be too shocking even if the point was to moralize. The point is that it's a double entendre, for which I gave to alternative explanations (either Nausicaa is aware of it or she isn't).

I've suggested before that another female character, Calypso, is also supposed to be a slightly amusing character to the predominantly male audience. I think in both episodes we have a masculine view of women with humorous undertones. "Can't live them, can't live without them", that sort of thing. (viewtopic.php?f=22&t=69291&p=204771&hil ... so#p204771)

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 367
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by Aetos » Sat Sep 07, 2019 1:16 pm

Not to throw a wrench in the works, but Hainesworth says that μίσγεσθαι as an euphemism for having sex, is a later usage and speculates that it must have "sounded odd to the Classical Age". He further mentions that "the Scholiasts make no mention of it, but Eusthathios notes a gloss συνεῖναι beside παρεῖναι". He (Hainesworth) points to Book VII, line 247 as an exact parallel of this sense of μίσγεσθαι :
μίσγεται οὔτε θεῶν οὔτε θνητῶν ἀνθρώπων.
But that's just Hainesworth, Stanford has no comment whatsoever. Perhaps more modern scholarship addresses this.

User avatar
Paul Derouda
Global Moderator
Posts: 2132
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by Paul Derouda » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:28 pm

In "later usage" a euphemism? I disagree. The word (with or without ἐν φιλότητι) is very common in this sense in Homer, Hesiod, the Hymns, Herodotus, so I really don't know where Hainsworth got the idea that it's a "later usage".

The instances in Homer (from Cunliffe's dictionary):
7. In pass., to have sexual intercourse: τῆς εὐνῆς ἐπιβήμεναι ἠδὲ μιγῆναι Ι 133 = 275 = Τ 176. Cf. Β 232, Γ 445, Ζ 25, 161, Ξ 295: α 433, θ 268, κ 334, λ 268, ο 430, τ 266, χ 445, ψ 219.--With dat. of person: γυναικί περ ἐν φιλότητι μίσγεσθαι Ω 131. Cf. Ζ 165, Φ 143: α 73, ε 126, η 61, λ 306, ο 420, σ 325, υ 7, 12.--With cognate acc.: φιλότης τε καὶ εὐνή, ἣν ἐμίγης Ο 33.

I think 7.247 μίσγεται οὔτε θεῶν οὔτε θνητῶν ἀνθρώπων is a similar double entendre. We're supposed to smile at the idea of the sex-starved goddess Calypso who wouldn't let Odysseus go. As the episode of Aphrodite and Ares shows, the Odyssey poet is not quite as prudish as some people in later antiquity or in our times.

User avatar
Paul Derouda
Global Moderator
Posts: 2132
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by Paul Derouda » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:48 pm

Just a quick search, by no means exhaustive, of μίσγω in early hexameter poetry as a simple verb (i.e. without εν φιλοτητι) in the sense "to have sex".

IL.9.133 μή ποτε τῆς εὐνῆς ἐπιβήμεναι ἠδὲ μιγῆναι,
IL.21.143 πρεσβυτάτη: τῇ γάρ ῥα μίγη ποταμὸς βαθυδίνης.
OD.1.73 ἐν σπέσσι γλαφυροῖσι Ποσειδάωνι μιγεῖσα.
OD.7.61 τῇ δὲ Ποσειδάων ἐμίγη καὶ ἐγείνατο παῖδα
TH.53 τὰς ἐν Πιερίῃ Κρονίδῃ τέκε πατρὶ μιγεῖσα
SH.55 κεκριμένην γενεήν, τὸν μὲν βροτῷ ἀνδρὶ μιγεῖσα,
HH.4.493 ἔνθεν ἅλις τέξουσι βόες ταύροισι μιγεῖσαι
HH.5.46 ἀνδρὶ καταθνητῷ μιχθήμεναι, ὄφρα τάχιστα

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 367
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by Aetos » Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:53 pm

I agree that the double entendre is a very plausible interpretation and earlier commentaries may be coloured by Victorian attitudes (even Ameis equates μίσγεσθαι with 'sich gesellt'), but Hainesworth a 20th century prude? I would have expected better! Homer pretty consistently pokes fun at the gods and from what I've seen in the Iliad, what comic relief there is always seems to be at the expense of the gods.

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 367
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by Aetos » Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:01 pm

Paul Derouda wrote:
Sat Sep 07, 2019 2:48 pm
IL.9.133 μή ποτε τῆς εὐνῆς ἐπιβήμεναι ἠδὲ μιγῆναι,
This is one is definitely spot on. Agamemnon is telling Achilles that he'll give Briseis back and he has not, most emphatically, slept with her.

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 780
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by seneca2008 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:04 pm

Aetos wrote:Not to throw a wrench in the works, but Hainesworth says that μίσγεσθαι as an euphemism for having sex, is a later usage and speculates that it must have "sounded odd to the Classical Age".
Paul Derouda wrote:In "later usage" a euphemism? I disagree. The word (with or without ἐν φιλότητι) is very common in this sense in Homer, Hesiod, the Hymns, Herodotus, so I really don't know where Hainsworth got the idea that it's a "later usage
I think we have to be careful here. Hainsworth actually says "μίσγεσθαι: "associate with". In later usage the simple verb in such a context is used as a euphemism for the sexual act".

I think the Homeric references which have been given all involve a bed, or a cave or some other contexts which makes the sexual meaning clear. Hainsworth points us to vii.247 for an "exact parallel"

OD.7.246 ναίει ἐϋπλόκαμος, δεινὴ θεός: οὐδέ τις αὐτῇ
OD.7.247 μίσγεται οὔτε θεῶν οὔτε θνητῶν ἀνθρώπων.

I don't find it plausible that anyone reading 288 could take it in a sexual way. Are you expecting us to understand that a woman against her parent's wishes would have sex (willingly) with men before her wedding? I think it was probably shameful enough to simply be in the company of men.

I like Wilson's "got too intimate" which rather deliciously fudges the issue.

Of course we are free to make the line as sexual as our inclinations tend. I don't think Hainsworth is in the least a prude.

User avatar
Paul Derouda
Global Moderator
Posts: 2132
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by Paul Derouda » Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:16 pm

seneca2008 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:04 pm
Are you expecting us to understand that a woman against her parent's wishes would have sex (willingly) with men before her wedding? I think it was probably shameful enough to simply be in the company of men.

I like Wilson's "got too intimate" which rather deliciously fudges the issue.
I was saying nothing of the kind. What I was saying is that "Homer" here is playing with ambiguity of the word μίσγεσθαι. I gave two possible interprations for this:
1) more likely, Nausicaa just means "to be in contact with", but unfortunately chooses a word that has another meaning as well. A predominantly male audience might find this funny.
2) another possibility, which I admit might be far-fetched: Nausicaa is playing around with the double entendre on purpose. The idea is not that she wishes to have sex before her wedding (where ever did you get that...?), but to use "accidental" talk about sex as a flirting tactic, to raise Odysseus' interest and to give him indirect indications that she just might find him eligible to marry her. Again, the idea would be that a predominantly male audience would find her coy smiles and sexual innuendos funny. But this is probably too complicated, and Nausicaa is not a grown up experienced woman like Calypso; hence I think 1) is more likely.

I find Wilson's "got too intimate" better than many other renditions. But why are you saying that she "deliciously fudges the issue", if you don't think there's any issue at all ("I don't find it plausible that anyone reading 288 could take it in a sexual way")? It seems to me that she has found that there's some ambiguity here, not completely different from what I have found, that needs to brought out.

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 780
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by seneca2008 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:10 pm

Paul Derouda wrote:I find Wilson's "got too intimate" better than many other renditions. But why are you saying that she "deliciously fudges the issue", if you don't think there's any issue at all ("I don't find it plausible that anyone reading 288 could take it in a sexual way")? It seems to me that she has found that there's some ambiguity here, not completely different from what I have found, that needs to brought out.
I said this because I although I don’t find a double entendre I have no objection to others reading one in and her translation covers both positions rather subtly.

Anyway the main purpose of my post was to state precisely what Hainsworth actually wrote.

User avatar
Paul Derouda
Global Moderator
Posts: 2132
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by Paul Derouda » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:31 pm

Richard Janko, in his Cambridge commentary on Iliad 13-16, sees sexual imagery in this and other martial passages. In his note on 290-1 he says, among other things (he also cites many other passages and gives secondary literature):
"ὀαριστύς, metaphorically 'battle', originally meant 'courting', 'amorous encounter'"
"In fact, the double entendre began with μιγήμεναι (286), as the archbishop saw (Eust. 932.40); τύπτω is ambiguous too".
I'm sorry that the note is too long to copy here; my point was just to show that I'm apparently not the only person on earth who thinks that μίσγω in some contexts can be a double entendre (anyone interested can look this up).

(Here's a link through Google books; I don't know if it works for others: https://books.google.fi/books?id=z8HLCg ... r'&f=false)

13.274
τὸν δ᾽ αὖτ᾽ Ἰδομενεὺς Κρητῶν ἀγὸς ἀντίον ηὔδα:
οἶδ᾽ ἀρετὴν οἷός ἐσσι: τί σε χρὴ ταῦτα λέγεσθαι;
εἰ γὰρ νῦν παρὰ νηυσὶ λεγοίμεθα πάντες ἄριστοι
ἐς λόχον, ἔνθα μάλιστ᾽ ἀρετὴ διαείδεται ἀνδρῶν,
ἔνθ᾽ ὅ τε δειλὸς ἀνὴρ ὅς τ᾽ ἄλκιμος ἐξεφαάνθη:
τοῦ μὲν γάρ τε κακοῦ τρέπεται χρὼς ἄλλυδις ἄλλῃ,
οὐδέ οἱ ἀτρέμας ἧσθαι ἐρητύετ᾽ ἐν φρεσὶ θυμός,
ἀλλὰ μετοκλάζει καὶ ἐπ᾽ ἀμφοτέρους πόδας ἵζει,
ἐν δέ τέ οἱ κραδίη μεγάλα στέρνοισι πατάσσει
κῆρας ὀϊομένῳ, πάταγος δέ τε γίγνετ᾽ ὀδόντων:
τοῦ δ᾽ ἀγαθοῦ οὔτ᾽ ἂρ τρέπεται χρὼς οὔτέ τι λίην
ταρβεῖ, ἐπειδὰν πρῶτον ἐσίζηται λόχον ἀνδρῶν,
ἀρᾶται δὲ τάχιστα μιγήμεναι ἐν δαῒ λυγρῇ:
οὐδέ κεν ἔνθα τεόν γε μένος καὶ χεῖρας ὄνοιτο.
εἴ περ γάρ κε βλεῖο πονεύμενος ἠὲ τυπείης
οὐκ ἂν ἐν αὐχέν᾽ ὄπισθε πέσοι βέλος οὐδ᾽ ἐνὶ νώτῳ,
ἀλλά κεν ἢ στέρνων ἢ νηδύος ἀντιάσειε
πρόσσω ἱεμένοιο μετὰ προμάχων ὀαριστύν.

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 367
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by Aetos » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:40 pm

seneca2008 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:04 pm
I think we have to be careful here. Hainsworth actually says "μίσγεσθαι: "associate with". In later usage the simple verb in such a context is used as a euphemism for the sexual act".
Seneca, I confess I'm at a bit of a loss here. There is no doubt that the word has several different shades of meaning and context will determine which one is appropriate; Apparently what I'm not seeing is why Hainesworth makes the comment at all. Certainly, 'associate with' is a perfectly acceptable meaning for this word and Hainesworth and Ameis both take this meaning. Perhaps I'm not interpreting the notion of "simple verb" correctly. As I understand it, a simple verb would be one that is not part of a formula, used as part of an idiomatic expression or compounded with a preposition or adverb, thus to me the verb as it appears both in 6.288 and 7.247 is in the simple form that Hainesworth applies this statement to.
seneca2008 wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:04 pm
I don't find it plausible that anyone reading 288 could take it in a sexual way. Are you expecting us to understand that a woman against her parent's wishes would have sex (willingly) with men before her wedding? I think it was probably shameful enough to simply be in the company of men.
I wouldn't take it that way either and I don't think Paul does for that matter (I see he already posted a reply). I believe that if there is a double entendre, it is intended strictly for the poet's 'live audience' and not as a reflexion of Nausicaa's character. I find it hard to believe that in the course of a few hours, she could relax enough with a complete stranger that she could "flirt" with him or engage in similar banter. However, illogicality on the part of the performer is not out of the question. Remember, this is a spontaneously generated line in front of an audience which is part of a scene that the poet is describing, which if I were to give it a title, would be "Our Hero is given a ride to her Father by a Princess". Trying to think like Nagler, I'd pick "solemnity" or perhaps "propriety" not "burlesque", as the Gestalt.

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 3244
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by jeidsath » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:03 pm

Aetos wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:40 pm
Remember, this is a spontaneously generated line in front of an audience which is part of a scene that the poet is describing, which if I were to give it a title, would be "Our Hero is given a ride to her Father by a Princess".
But she was ruined, just the same!
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 367
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by Aetos » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:09 pm

Nice one-liner, Joel! :lol: She's not exactly a Natasha Rostova, though.

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 3244
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by jeidsath » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:40 pm

It's from Gone with the Wind.

In the movie version, Rhett Butler was expelled from Westpoint for going on a buggy ride with a girl that he wouldn't marry afterwards. Scarlett is scandalized, and asks a whispered question, leading to the scene above.

My grandmother, who saw Gone with the Wind in the theater back in the days before television sets, told me once that they removed all the naughty bits from the book for the movie. In the book, the question is explicit, "did she get pregnant?"

Is this an irrelevant aside, or an example of how young women from more straitlaced cultures than our own were imagined to have discussed sex? I can't tell.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

Aetos
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 367
Joined: Sat May 19, 2018 6:04 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by Aetos » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:48 pm

I was thinking of Natasha Rostova in War and Peace. She gets seduced by a handsome young officer and although she attempts to elope with him, she never makes it out of the house, thanks to her cousin Sonya. Even so, her reputation is ruined. Things do turn out better for her though.

User avatar
Paul Derouda
Global Moderator
Posts: 2132
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:39 pm

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by Paul Derouda » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:34 am

jeidsath wrote:
Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:40 pm
Is this an irrelevant aside, or an example of how young women from more straitlaced cultures than our own were imagined to have discussed sex? I can't tell.
I don't think it's irrelevant. But there's the added complication that there's an important proportion of male fantasy in the female characters Odysseus meets during his Wanderings – look at the (in my opinion) humorous description of Odysseus as Calypso's reluctant toy boy, or how Circe immediately invites Odysseus to bed in straightforward terms. This is should be borne in mind when we look at a more "innocent" character like Nausicaa. Not necessarily that she's ready to get ruined, but at least that the story is bound to be tainted with the same sort of humor.

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 780
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by seneca2008 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:28 pm

I have now looked at Garvie, Odyssey, Books VI-VIII Cambridge University Press 1994 (Green and yellow series) on line 288.

He notes "Nausicaa means that it is wrong for a girl to have dealings with a man before she is publicly married to him, but for the ambiguity in these words [ἀνδράσι μίσγηται] see 6.136n"

the note on 136 says "...The verb is sometimes used of hostile contact in battle (e.g. Il 5.143), and the girls, to whom he appears like a lion, cannot be sure that his intentions are peaceful. There may be a further touch of humour in that the word often describes sexual intercourse (e.g. 8.268), and we do not yet know how the encounter will develop (see 6.25-40n.). The same ambiguity may be detected at 288: cf. also 7.247 "

The italicised words have been underlined in the copy I am reading and in the margin "?!!" added. A salutary reminder that the threat or possibility of rape is no laughing matter.

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 3244
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by jeidsath » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:43 pm

seneca2008 wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:28 pm
A salutary reminder that the threat or possibility of rape is no laughing matter.
That was a u-turn of a post.

What were you up that this reminder was especially salutary? We can only imagine that an all-but-willing Nausicaa was saved from your clutches when this reminder activated your moral inhibitions at the last possible moment.

"I'm afraid that you have to go now."

"But you said that you were bringing me by your apartment to explain Martindale in his fullest depth! You said that you had something that would help me with my influence anxiety."

"Just go."
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by seanjonesbw » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:01 pm

Goodness, you leave the garden untended for a week or two and up spring the brambles!
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

User avatar
jeidsath
Administrator
Posts: 3244
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by jeidsath » Fri Sep 20, 2019 2:23 pm

One man's brambles are another man's framboises.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

Montcombroux
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:27 am

Re: Odyssey Reading Group:

Post by Montcombroux » Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:18 am

Do I get the impression that the Odyssey reading group has petered out? No new assigned lines since Aug 31.
My elementary level of Greek prevents me from posting anything of significance, but I have been assiduously working through the Steadman commentary and comparing my interpretation with the Meunier French translation. I have learned a great deal from the various posts along the way and thoroughly enjoyed the journey thus far. I have been continuing and am presently into Book 7.
I am sure there are many in the same situation, and hope this is just a hiatus and not the end of the road.
Michael

seanjonesbw
Textkit Fan
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 7:06 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Odyssey Reading Group:

Post by seanjonesbw » Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:40 am

Montcombroux wrote:
Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:18 am
I have been assiduously working through the Steadman commentary and comparing my interpretation with the Meunier French translation. I have learned a great deal from the various posts along the way and thoroughly enjoyed the journey thus far. I have been continuing and am presently into Book 7.
I am sure there are many in the same situation, and hope this is just a hiatus and not the end of the road.
I'm very glad to hear this! I'll be posting a new thread today - sorry for the big gap.
ἁλὶ γὰρ δέδμητο φίλον κῆρ 🌊

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 780
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: Odyssey Reading Group: Book 6 Lines 262-294

Post by seneca2008 » Tue Sep 24, 2019 11:12 am

Montcombroux wrote:My elementary level of Greek prevents me from posting anything of significance
Please don't let your supposed level prevent you from posting here. Questions are more than welcome and often give more experienced readers pause for thought. There is a lot of truth in the maxim "there is no such thing as a stupid question". How can any of us make progress if we don't ask?

Post Reply