Check the introductory thread for a description of how the group works.
We’re working from Geoffrey Steadman’s Odyssey Books 6-8, a freely-available pdf
Innocent, m'lud, I swear! It's more that Fitzgerald's mistake got me wondering about κάπρος for its own sake.
Fitzgerald got it wrong. Imagine that.
Beeke wrote: •ETYM Agrees with a Italo-Germanic word for ‘he-goat’, Lat. caper, U cabru ‘caprum’, and in Germanic e.g. ON hafr. An uncertain trace of the word in Celtic is supposed in Gallo-Rom. *cabrostos ‘honeysuckle, privet’. The newly created Greek name of the he-goat, τράγος, made another use possible for *kapro-. The word was probably first used appositively with σῦς, as in Homer. Lat. aper ‘boar’ took the vowel of caper, but is further unrelated.
Briand 1997: 91–115 analyzes the attested forms as continuing an old adjective ‘devouring (greedily)’ from the root *kap- ‘to take’ (Lat. capiō ‘id.’, G happen ‘to swallow, snatch’). The root was used for a snatching way of eating (Hom. κάπη ‘crib’, κάπτω ‘to gulp down’, cf. τράγος ‘goat’ beside τρώγω), and the adjective lexicalized in the separate languages, where it came to denote different male animals. See DELG Supp. If the root was Indo-European, it must have been *kh2p-, not *kap-; alternatively, it was borrowed from the European substrate. See ▶κάπτω.
One thing this blunder seems to prove is that Fitzgerald was at least primarily working with the actual Greek text, not the Loeb or some other crib, as often seems to be the case with translators of classical works nowadays.Barry Hofstetter wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 2:36 pmFitzgerald got it wrong. Imagine that.
I don't know about the historical Greeks, but for internal evidence from the Odyssey the male σῦς with white tusks (so, a boar right? Animal husbandry not my strong suit either!) that Eumaeus kills at Od. 14.414-439 seems to have been kept captive to the age of 5 for the very occasion. But then was it originally wild and has it been castrated...Paul Derouda wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:20 pmShould we imagine then that Greeks occasionally kept wild boars in captivity, perhaps mostly for sacrificial banquets? I know that wild boars are raised in captivity for example in France for their meat, but I don't know how old the practice is (I don't know much about farmkeeping).
That σῦς is not called κάπρ(ι)ος in the passage, so perhaps we're dealing with a domestic pig (i.e. a different species)?seanjonesbw wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:36 pmI don't know about the historical Greeks, but for internal evidence from the Odyssey the male σῦς with white tusks (so, a boar right? Animal husbandry not my strong suit either!) that Eumaeus kills at Od. 14.414-439 seems to have been kept captive to the age of 5 for the very occasion. But then was it originally wild and has it been castrated...Paul Derouda wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:20 pmShould we imagine then that Greeks occasionally kept wild boars in captivity, perhaps mostly for sacrificial banquets? I know that wild boars are raised in captivity for example in France for their meat, but I don't know how old the practice is (I don't know much about farmkeeping).
Paul this is, I think, a significant contribution to swine scholarship.
In the interests of developing our burgeoning community of susophiles, I've been doing some reading on boar genetics and interbreeding (where I'm on more solid ground than classical philology). I don't claim that any of this is relevant to our reading of κάπρος, but I thought it was interesting.
Ekroth (p.334): "Overall, fully male victims were rarely sacrificed—presumably due to their scarcity in the flocks—and here the ritual practices adapt to the practicalities of animal husbandry, where one uncastrated male would be enough to service ten to twenty females depending of the species"
A good point, although I think the power dynamic is unambiguous. The threatening nature of boars, which mwh alluded to above, is a loss in this translation.The boar is less bucolic, more threatening, and invites more questions about the power dynamic between Artemis and these animals.
Yes and every time I tell someone what I did yesterday it's an 'act of recollection' but that doesn't mean it's always relevant to follow it with "but of course, this is only my own memory of the event".
Perhaps I should have said 'reminds us more clearly of the power dynamic between Artemis and these animals'.
The first figure seems to have some weights. Perhaps training? The second figure has a discus.sean wrote:The bikini ladies are cool, though. What are they doing in the top left?
I don't know if we can say why these forms went out of common use (there being no steering committee for Archaic Greek verb forms, unfortunately), but Sihler has a bit to say on them (§456.3B and 467). He notes that the ske/o iteratives are very productive in Anatolian, but less so in Sanskrit and older Greek. By the classical period, he observes that the original sense of the iterative is lost, and that this was true in Sanskrit as well.seanjonesbw wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:36 pmAnother "very small point" from me:
In line 95 there's a past iterative - ἀποπλύνεσκε.
Is there any particular thought on why iterative forms with σκ dropped out of Greek except in certain verbs? I note that they're particularly good at supplying syllables long by position, which got me wondering whether they're one of the older bits of Homer kept for the metre. As ever, happy to be handed a link instead of an explanation.
Well that seems remiss - it's a wonder they made it to modern Greek with that attitude.