Herdotus, III, 36,5
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Herdotus, III, 36,5
I have a question about he following sentence. Cambyses, growing more and more insane, tries to kill Croesus, who narrowly escapes. Then Herodotus writes:
οἱ δὲ θεράποντες ἐπιστάμενοι τὸν τρόπον αὐτοῦ κατακρύπτουσι τὸν Κροῖσον ἐπὶ τῷδε τῷ λόγῳ ὥστε, εἰ μὲν μεταμελήσῃ τῷ Καμβύσῃ καὶ ἐπιζητέῃ τὸν Κροῖσον, οἳ δὲ ἐκφήναντες αὐτὸν δῶρα λάμψονται ζωάγρια Κροίσου, ἢν δὲ μὴ μεταμέληται μηδὲ ποθέῃ μιν, τότε καταχρᾶσθαι.
(They, knowing Cambyses' mood, hid Croesus; intending to reveal him and receive gifts for saving his life, if Cambyses should repent and ask for Croesus, but if he should not repent nor wish Croesus back, then to kill the Lydian.)
The servants are pondering two possibilities: εἰ μὲν..... ἢν δὲ.... Are εἰ and ἢν equivalent here, or is there a distinction suggesting a difference in likelihood of one of them happening in the eye of the servants?
οἱ δὲ θεράποντες ἐπιστάμενοι τὸν τρόπον αὐτοῦ κατακρύπτουσι τὸν Κροῖσον ἐπὶ τῷδε τῷ λόγῳ ὥστε, εἰ μὲν μεταμελήσῃ τῷ Καμβύσῃ καὶ ἐπιζητέῃ τὸν Κροῖσον, οἳ δὲ ἐκφήναντες αὐτὸν δῶρα λάμψονται ζωάγρια Κροίσου, ἢν δὲ μὴ μεταμέληται μηδὲ ποθέῃ μιν, τότε καταχρᾶσθαι.
(They, knowing Cambyses' mood, hid Croesus; intending to reveal him and receive gifts for saving his life, if Cambyses should repent and ask for Croesus, but if he should not repent nor wish Croesus back, then to kill the Lydian.)
The servants are pondering two possibilities: εἰ μὲν..... ἢν δὲ.... Are εἰ and ἢν equivalent here, or is there a distinction suggesting a difference in likelihood of one of them happening in the eye of the servants?
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
i think the one without ἀν is an archaism, otherwise they are the same
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
My Herodotus für den Schulgebrauch erklärt von Dr. K. Abicht (*) has an answer, I think:
(*) A work similar to Ameis-Hentze-Cauer for Homer and almost as good, which I find very helpful and I suspect that Bart might enjoy as well.
I don't know what " S. z. c." stands for, but apparently this means "see Chapter 35, page 5 line 38 with note". The note there reads:εἰ c. Indic. Fut. in protasi. Dem εἰ c. Indic. Fut. enspricht im folgenden ἤν c. conj. S. z. c. 35 S. 5, 38.
So, if I understand this correctly, whether it's εἰ or ἤν depends on which verb form is used in the protasis. And that, according to Abicht, has little effect on the meaning (but it would be nice if someone like mwh who really knows Greek might tell us if he agrees - but I haven't been very active here lately, so I don't know whether he's still hanging around).ἤν δ᾽ ἁμάρτω. Der Konjunktiv mit ἤν in protasi im Gedanken hier nicht verschieden von dem Optativ mit εἰ (s. o. εἰ τύχοιμι). In ähnlicher Weise wechseln als Formen des hypothetischen Vordersatzes εἰ c. Indic. Fut. (wenig verschieden von εἰ c. optat.) und ἤν cum coniunctivo c. 36.
(*) A work similar to Ameis-Hentze-Cauer for Homer and almost as good, which I find very helpful and I suspect that Bart might enjoy as well.
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
I would have thought that any difference in the likelihood of the two "if" clauses would be expressed by the mood of the verbs rather than the difference between εἰ/ἢν.
εἰ μὲν μεταμελήσῃ τῷ Καμβύσῃ καὶ ἐπιζητέῃ τὸν Κροῖσον, οἳ δὲ ἐκφήναντες αὐτὸν δῶρα λάμψονται ζωάγρια Κροίσου,
Here μεταμελήσῃ is aorist subjunctive (ἐκφήναντες is an aorist) and λάμψονται future.
Note See below
εἰ plus subjunctive seems unusual. εἰ is usually followed by indicative or optative. (However 49.15 of the Cambridge Classical Greek Grammar says in relation to habitual conditions that Herodotus uses εἰ plus subjunctive)
ἢν δὲ μὴ μεταμέληται μηδὲ ποθέῃ μιν, τότε καταχρᾶσθαι.
μεταμέληται and ποθέῃ are present subjunctives, καταχρᾶσθαι a present middle infinitive
So the apodosis is in the first case future and in the second an infinite. I can't see basis for deciding here whether one is more likely than the other. There would have been other ways for Herodotus to make a difference in probability clear and that he doesn't, seems to me, to indicate that they are equally likely.
I would be grateful for any corrections to this.
εἰ μὲν μεταμελήσῃ τῷ Καμβύσῃ καὶ ἐπιζητέῃ τὸν Κροῖσον, οἳ δὲ ἐκφήναντες αὐτὸν δῶρα λάμψονται ζωάγρια Κροίσου,
Here μεταμελήσῃ is aorist subjunctive (ἐκφήναντες is an aorist) and λάμψονται future.
Note See below
Abicht seems to think it is an (Ionic) future indicative.
εἰ plus subjunctive seems unusual. εἰ is usually followed by indicative or optative. (However 49.15 of the Cambridge Classical Greek Grammar says in relation to habitual conditions that Herodotus uses εἰ plus subjunctive)
ἢν δὲ μὴ μεταμέληται μηδὲ ποθέῃ μιν, τότε καταχρᾶσθαι.
μεταμέληται and ποθέῃ are present subjunctives, καταχρᾶσθαι a present middle infinitive
So the apodosis is in the first case future and in the second an infinite. I can't see basis for deciding here whether one is more likely than the other. There would have been other ways for Herodotus to make a difference in probability clear and that he doesn't, seems to me, to indicate that they are equally likely.
I would be grateful for any corrections to this.
Last edited by seneca2008 on Thu May 30, 2019 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
That's how I understand Abicht. And if I understand him correctly, according to him there's little difference in the meaning here between the different moods. I too would be grateful for any corrections!
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Abicht seems to think it is an (Ionic) future indicative.Here μεταμελήσῃ is aorist subjunctive
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Thanks for giving this your thoughts.
Concerning Abicht: I think you mentioned him before, Paul, but I somehow forgot. How foolish of me, for his commentary seems exactly the kind of thing I've been looking for.
Concerning Abicht: I think you mentioned him before, Paul, but I somehow forgot. How foolish of me, for his commentary seems exactly the kind of thing I've been looking for.
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Sorry to have been gone so long, but one of my projects happens to be reading Herodotus ( along with the Iliad and working through Dr. Claxton's Attica, as well as refreshing my Latin). I read this passage just a couple of weeks ago and didn't give it much more thought than to consider it having a pair of conditional clauses with a pair of expected outcomes. So I have to also thank you, Paul, for mentioning Abicht. Up till now, I have been referring to the How & Wells commentary in Perseus, which is good for background information but doesn't usually address grammar.
In any event, when Randy mentioned that Abicht had the first clause in the indicative (μεταμελήσεται… λάμψονται), I dug a little deeper and saw that in Hude's Critical Apparatus (I'm using the OCT) μεταμελήσεται was an alternative reading for μεταμελήσῃ. I'm probably mistaken, but to me that means there is a future most vivid condition followed by a future more vivid condition. In Hude's edition, there would simply be 2 future more vivid conditions. My other thought (and this is probably a stretch) is that this is one big result clause with option 1 being more probable denoted by the indicative and option 2 being less probable denoted by the infinitive. I don't even know if that's possible and considering that Cambyses used option 3 (kill them all (except for Croesus) !!!), Herodotus, knowing how this was going to turn out, didn't really need to "nuance" the possible outcomes in this particular sentence.
In any event, when Randy mentioned that Abicht had the first clause in the indicative (μεταμελήσεται… λάμψονται), I dug a little deeper and saw that in Hude's Critical Apparatus (I'm using the OCT) μεταμελήσεται was an alternative reading for μεταμελήσῃ. I'm probably mistaken, but to me that means there is a future most vivid condition followed by a future more vivid condition. In Hude's edition, there would simply be 2 future more vivid conditions. My other thought (and this is probably a stretch) is that this is one big result clause with option 1 being more probable denoted by the indicative and option 2 being less probable denoted by the infinitive. I don't even know if that's possible and considering that Cambyses used option 3 (kill them all (except for Croesus) !!!), Herodotus, knowing how this was going to turn out, didn't really need to "nuance" the possible outcomes in this particular sentence.
Last edited by Aetos on Fri May 31, 2019 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Thanks, Aetos, for anticipating a request I was going to make, i.e., for someone with a critical edition to check the apparatus.
Do I understand the following correctly?:
Abicht reads εἰ μὲν μεταμελήσῃ τῷ Καμβύσῃ καὶ ἐπιζητέῃ τὸν Κροῖσον and takes μεταμελήσῃ to be an indicative future? Does he take ἐπιζητέῃ to be (indicative) future also?
The OCT reads ...? Aetos, could you kindly show us the text (both verbs, please) the OCT goes with, and tell us, are μεταμελήσῃ and μεταμελήσεται manuscript variants, or is one or the other an emendation?
Do I understand the following correctly?:
Abicht reads εἰ μὲν μεταμελήσῃ τῷ Καμβύσῃ καὶ ἐπιζητέῃ τὸν Κροῖσον and takes μεταμελήσῃ to be an indicative future? Does he take ἐπιζητέῃ to be (indicative) future also?
The OCT reads ...? Aetos, could you kindly show us the text (both verbs, please) the OCT goes with, and tell us, are μεταμελήσῃ and μεταμελήσεται manuscript variants, or is one or the other an emendation?
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Hi Randy,
In the critical apparatus, here are the following alternative readings:
μεταμελήσῃ = μεταμελήσει d [V] P
ἐπιζητῇ = ἐπιζητεῖ P : -τήσει d (ει D2) [V]
d= D cod. Vaticanus 2369
R cod. Vaticanus 123
S cod. Sancroftianus (Cantabr. Emm. 30)
V cod. Vindobonensis LXXXV
P= cod. Parisinus 1633
Abicht's edition uses μεταμελήσει and ἐπιζητήσει, otherwise the same text as in the OCT. Here's Abicht's text:https://archive.org/details/p1p2herodot ... /page/n457
Bart's quotation above is the same as in the OCT., except I think he meant to write ἐπιζητῇ, not ἐπιζητέῃ.
What's interesting is that both Hude and Abicht made use of Llhardy, Stein and Bredow in compiling their editions.
EDIT: corrected μεταμελήσεται back to its correct form in the text. D'oh!
In the critical apparatus, here are the following alternative readings:
μεταμελήσῃ = μεταμελήσει d [V] P
ἐπιζητῇ = ἐπιζητεῖ P : -τήσει d (ει D2) [V]
d= D cod. Vaticanus 2369
R cod. Vaticanus 123
S cod. Sancroftianus (Cantabr. Emm. 30)
V cod. Vindobonensis LXXXV
P= cod. Parisinus 1633
Abicht's edition uses μεταμελήσει and ἐπιζητήσει, otherwise the same text as in the OCT. Here's Abicht's text:https://archive.org/details/p1p2herodot ... /page/n457
Bart's quotation above is the same as in the OCT., except I think he meant to write ἐπιζητῇ, not ἐπιζητέῃ.
What's interesting is that both Hude and Abicht made use of Llhardy, Stein and Bredow in compiling their editions.
EDIT: corrected μεταμελήσεται back to its correct form in the text. D'oh!
Last edited by Aetos on Fri May 31, 2019 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Thank you, Aetos. Though thanks to your citation I see that Abicht's text is μεταμελήσει, not μεταμελήσεται.Abicht's edition uses μεταμελήσεται and ἐπιζητήσει
So that clears up one point: When Abicht says indicative future, he's talking about μεταμελήσει, not μεταμελήσῃ. Seneca is clearly correct that μεταμελήσῃ is aorist subjunctive. I'm still mystified in that case by the absence of ἄν/ἤν. Seneca, thanks for the reference to the Cambridge grammar, but the condition in Herodotus doesn't seem to be habitual, do you agree?
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Stupid of me, not to notice that text is not the same in Abicht!
I suppose it's really an editorial decision; I see that both variants -σει and -σῃ are in the manuscripts, and I'm sure that in general these are very easily corrupted from one form to the other, to the extent that in most relevant places you'll find both variants?
I suppose it's really an editorial decision; I see that both variants -σει and -σῃ are in the manuscripts, and I'm sure that in general these are very easily corrupted from one form to the other, to the extent that in most relevant places you'll find both variants?
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Geez, after all that fine attention to detail, I blow it on a typo! Anyway, I'm going out on a limb here and say that whether or not these are fut. most/more vivid conditionals, in neither case would ἄν be required. If I understand future conditionals (and I probably don't), the only time ἄν would be required is in a fut. less vivid conditon, where you'd have εἰ +the opt. in the protasis, and the opt. + ἄν in the apodosis. ἤν is standing in for ἐάν in the second condition, which would take a subjunctive in the protasis and fut. ind. (or its equivalent) in the apodosis.
Last edited by Aetos on Fri May 31, 2019 7:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
By the way, my new OCT by Wilson reads the same as Hude, but the apparatus is more compact:
μεταμελήσῃ A: -σει d
ἐπιζητῇ A: -τήσει d
A is Laurentianus plut. 70.3 and d a consensus of a number of manuscripts (same as in Hude?).
μεταμελήσῃ A: -σει d
ἐπιζητῇ A: -τήσει d
A is Laurentianus plut. 70.3 and d a consensus of a number of manuscripts (same as in Hude?).
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
I didn't know the CA had changed again. I did notice that the organisation of the Sigla had changed from the editions posted on archive.org and my hard copy. I'm guessing that d now includes the Parisinus codex. A is the Laurentianus LXX,3 in Hude as well. In any case, Wilson's edition would certainly be more up to date than Hude. At any rate, I would imagine that the organisation of the Sigla is up to the editor.
P.S. @Randy: I wouldn't be familiar with any of this if I hadn't taken your suggestion and read "Scribes & Scholars"!
P.S. @Randy: I wouldn't be familiar with any of this if I hadn't taken your suggestion and read "Scribes & Scholars"!
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Paul, just to beat the last living daylight out of this horse, could you affirm what I think is the case, that the new Wilson OCT goes with A (μεταμελήσῃ, ἐπιζητῇ)? If so, I still don't understand the absence of ἄν/ἤν. With all due respect to Herodotus, is it possible that he was a little rusty on his conditionals, or maybe was traveling and didn't have his Smyth at hand?
Aetos, glad you liked 'Scribes'!
Aetos, glad you liked 'Scribes'!
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
I do know he was fond of introducing his apodoseis with δέ after personal pronouns, which explains "οἱ δὲ έκφήναντες…". From what I've read, he occasionally omits ἄν, which may explain why we see εἰ, instead of ἤν (ἐι+ἄν) in the first condition, εἰ … μεταμελήσῃ, οἱ δὲ … λάμψονται.
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Yes, that's called an apodοtic δέ (Smyth 2837). I see it a lot in the medical treatises of the Hippocratic Corpus (Ionic and for the most part roughly contemporary with Herodotus).he was fond of introducing his apodoseis with δέ
I believe you, but do you have a citation? For me that would be a great takeaway from this thread.From what I've read, he occasionally omits ἄν
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
This is from Macaulay's notes to Book III:
https://archive.org/details/book3edited ... t/page/126
Amy Barbour also talks about it in her Selections from Herodotus, Introduction, p. 39 (para. 156):
https://archive.org/details/Barbour1001
Smyth 2283 mentions how ἤν derived (εἰ & ἄν), so if you omit ἄν, you're left with εἰ
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... thp%3D2283
https://archive.org/details/book3edited ... t/page/126
Amy Barbour also talks about it in her Selections from Herodotus, Introduction, p. 39 (para. 156):
https://archive.org/details/Barbour1001
Smyth 2283 mentions how ἤν derived (εἰ & ἄν), so if you omit ἄν, you're left with εἰ
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... thp%3D2283
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
That seals the deal for me. Thanks!
Bart asked,
Bart asked,
Bart, thanks for the post. Based on the discussion, unless I'm missing something, it seems the answer to your question is no, no difference. Herodotus (per Aetos' research) simply occasionally drops the ἄν in protases with the subjunctive. (Why he would do this in one protasis, but not the other, in the same sentence ... I guess we'll never know. And of course we can usually never put 100% trust in how well the manuscripts reflect what the author originally wrote.)Are εἰ and ἢν equivalent here, or is there a distinction suggesting a difference in likelihood of one of them happening in the eye of the servants?
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Thanks y'all, I agree that there is probably no difference. My question was in fact based on the fact that a Dutch commentator (Van Groningen) hints at a difference in likelihood of the two options. However I only have his commentary, not the text he is using, so maybe his comments reflect the same reasoning Aetos put forth when writing:
Aetos wrote: ↑Fri May 31, 2019 3:28 pm In any event, when Randy mentioned that Abicht had the first clause in the indicative (μεταμελήσεται… λάμψονται), I dug a little deeper and saw that in Hude's Critical Apparatus (I'm using the OCT) μεταμελήσεται was an alternative reading for μεταμελήσῃ. I'm probably mistaken, but to me that means there is a future most vivid condition followed by a future more vivid condition. In Hude's edition, there would simply be 2 future more vivid conditions. My other thought (and this is probably a stretch) is that this is one big result clause with option 1 being more probable denoted by the indicative and option 2 being less probable denoted by the infinitive.
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
I was a little sloppy in that first post, and corrected this mistake a couple posts later:
"In any event, when Randy mentioned that Abicht had the first clause in the indicative (μεταμελήσεται… λάμψονται), I dug a little deeper and saw that in Hude's Critical Apparatus (I'm using the OCT) μεταμελήσεται was an alternative reading for μεταμελήσῃ."
μεταμελήσεται should be μεταμελήσει, still indicative, just not middle/passive.
"In any event, when Randy mentioned that Abicht had the first clause in the indicative (μεταμελήσεται… λάμψονται), I dug a little deeper and saw that in Hude's Critical Apparatus (I'm using the OCT) μεταμελήσεται was an alternative reading for μεταμελήσῃ."
μεταμελήσεται should be μεταμελήσει, still indicative, just not middle/passive.
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
The Wilson OCT reads:RandyGibbons wrote: ↑Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:16 am Paul, just to beat the last living daylight out of this horse, could you affirm what I think is the case, that the new Wilson OCT goes with A (μεταμελήσῃ, ἐπιζητῇ)? If so, I still don't understand the absence of ἄν/ἤν. With all due respect to Herodotus, is it possible that he was a little rusty on his conditionals, or maybe was traveling and didn't have his Smyth at hand?
Actually there is apparently a difference here with the old OCT in that ἐπιζητέῃ and ποθέῃ are contracted (assuming that the text pasted at the beginning of this thread is the old OCT). But otherwise they are the same. I only checked quickly that the tense and mood are the same, and didn't notice the contraction or lack thereof!εἰ μὲν μεταμελήσῃ τῷ Καμβύσῃ καὶ ἐπιζητῇ τὸν Κροῖσον, οἱ δὲ ἐκφήναντες αὐτὸν δῶρα λάμψονται ζωάγρια Κροίσου, ἢν δὲ μὴ μεταμέληται μηδὲ ποθῇ μιν, τότε καταχρᾶσθαι.
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
Hi Paul,
That's the exact same text as in Hude, i.e. μεταμελήσῃ ,ἐπιζητῇ and ποθῇ are the same forms in Hude's edition(old version of the OCT). I think Bart got his quote from Perseus, which comes from the Loeb (Godley) edition.
That's the exact same text as in Hude, i.e. μεταμελήσῃ ,ἐπιζητῇ and ποθῇ are the same forms in Hude's edition(old version of the OCT). I think Bart got his quote from Perseus, which comes from the Loeb (Godley) edition.
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
That’s correct.
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Re: Herdotus, III, 36,5
For the record this is what the Cambridge Grammar says as a note under “habitual conditions”
“In poetry and Herodotus, ἄν is sometimes omitted ( εἰ + subj. is used)”.
But it also says what it calls “habitual conditions” is variously named by others. “Note 1: This type of condition is variously called ‘indefinite', ‘generic' or ‘general'. ” it seems difficult to fit the present case into that grouping.
“In poetry and Herodotus, ἄν is sometimes omitted ( εἰ + subj. is used)”.
But it also says what it calls “habitual conditions” is variously named by others. “Note 1: This type of condition is variously called ‘indefinite', ‘generic' or ‘general'. ” it seems difficult to fit the present case into that grouping.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.