Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Here you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Latin, and more.
Post Reply
User avatar
Cathexis
Textkit Member
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:04 pm

Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Cathexis »

Maybe I've been listening to too many old movies<wink>,

Example: Rationibus. Is this always rah-tee-o-nee-bus or can it be ra-shun-ee-bus? (like Eng. "ration.")

TIA,

Cathexis
Romani ite Domum

Hylander
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2504
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Hylander »

Only in the old-fashioned and discredited English pronunciation of Latin.
Bill Walderman

User avatar
Cathexis
Textkit Member
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:04 pm

Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Cathexis »

I knew it! Too much "Mr. Chips", etc.

Thanks!

Cathexis
Romani ite Domum

User avatar
Cathexis
Textkit Member
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:04 pm

Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Cathexis »

I should have waited one more day to ask,

After some recent discussion in another thread, I found a copy of Nutting's Primer, 1911 for sale on Ebay for $9.96.
I ordered it and received it yesterday. The Guide to Pronunciation is in the back as Appendix I. Right there it said,
"T always as in tin(never as in rational.)"

So there you go,

Cathexis
Romani ite Domum

Callisper
Textkit Member
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:21 pm

Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Callisper »

Cathexis wrote: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:49 pm always
How could we possibly know?

You will be able to find people at various levels of expertise, up to the highest, with ideas about alternative pronunciations in certain environments.

These ideas have nothing going for them but subjective opinion regarding euphony. But some of them are probably right (just looking at probabilities).

I'm sure my opinion of pronouncing rationibus with "shun" because "ration" is pronounced that way in English needn't be stated.

Hylander
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2504
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Hylander »

How could we possibly know?
We can be pretty certain that -tio(n-) was pronounced as two syllable because pronouncing it as a single syllable wouldn't scan in Latin verse.
Bill Walderman

Callisper
Textkit Member
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:21 pm

Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Callisper »

Hylander wrote: Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:36 pm We can be pretty certain that -tio(n-) was pronounced as two syllable because pronouncing it as a single syllable wouldn't scan in Latin verse.
Indeed! I stand mistaken.

My point of course was more generally intended.

Hylander
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2504
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Hylander »

Ancient Latin pronunciation is pretty well understood. Allen's Vox Latina lays it out along with the evidence.
Bill Walderman

Callisper
Textkit Member
Posts: 146
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:21 pm

Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Callisper »

That evidence is far too thin on the ground to make statements about a given grapheme "always" being pronounced a certain way.

User avatar
jeidsath
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by jeidsath »

On pg. 51 of Vox Latina, Allen mentions that short i may have had a closer quality before vowels. Compare, he mentions, Latin dies -> Italian/Old French di, quī -> chi/qui.
These closer pre-vocalic qualities of e and i are probably due to the y-'glide' which automatically follows them in these conditions–and which the English speaker will automatically produce.
Footnote:
There seems to have been a similar effect on u before a vowel (e.g. in duo), due to an automatic w-'glide'.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

Post Reply