Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

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Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by jeidsath » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:10 pm

I’ve begun reading though Ørberg, along with the Oxford Latin Course, and some strategic memorization of forms as I go. It’s similar enough to Greek that progress seems to be fast so far. I’m mostly picking up vocabulary, which is what I need.

However, Ørberg is frustrating as it doesn’t contain any introduction. What does it cover in total? I assume it’s targeted at classical Latin? When do I begin supplementing with real Latin?
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by Constantinus Philo » Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:55 pm

U just grab a good Latin grammar like gildersleeve read it carefully and then jump into any author u like, using commented editions at the beginning.
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by jeidsath » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:16 pm

I’m afraid that I was always a poor student of language growing up, so I try to use methodologies that mask my inability to learn simply by reading a grammar. Very impressed that you can do this though.
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by Constantinus Philo » Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:36 pm

Ok just to let u know that the easiest Latin author for beginners is Cornelius Nepos
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by RandyGibbons » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:02 pm

Roma in Italia est. What more of an introduction do you need? It covers the same ground as any other introductory Latin text. Yes, targeted at "classical" Latin, though I'm not sure what that is or is opposed to. (By the way, the Grammatica Latina entry in the Ørberg series is a very convenient, light-weight, portable compendium of noun, adjective, pronoun and verb forms, though you can of course find these in a zillion places, including online.)
When do I begin supplementing with real Latin?
Joel, I have to admit I'm surprised at that question coming from you, the "read lots of crap" man! In my experience, Familia Romana was one of the most delightful pieces of crap I ever read.

Glad you've decided to learn Latin. Let us know when you find out what happened to Medus and Lydia!
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by jeidsath » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:53 pm

Well, I've been dipping into the Vulgate as well, which is easy to read alongside the Greek text. However I can't always distinguish the Latin case, especially when it doesn't coincide exactly with the Latin case (which is what I'm most interested in).

I'm not sure how much help the Vulgate's Latin will be with Classical Latin. The Gospels were less help that I would have expected with Attic. But I hope that the difference between Vulgate and Classical Latin is not so large.

I also have a Greek/Latin Xenophon, which I may wind up devoting more time to. Hopefully I can find the same thing with Plato.
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by Constantinus Philo » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:09 pm

Don't try any of nineteenth century Latin translations of Plato, they are not accurate.
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by scotistic » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:16 pm

Orberg begins sneaking in a little authentic classical Latin (some poems by Catullus, if I recall correctly) by the end of Familia Romana. The follow-up volume Roma Aeterna is largely compiled and simplified from classical sources. There are a number of supplemental "readers" which are Orbergized selections from different classical authors (Caesar, Ovid, Virgil etc) which presupposed the vocabulary from Familia Romana and are designed to be used after it (and in some cases after a certain number of chapters from Roma Aeterna too). For "crap reading" there are additional readers keyed to the chapters of Familia Romana and providing more comprehensible input at the same level.

There is a "College Companion" available for Lingua Latina that contains grammatical explanations etc in English if you feel you need them. I'd already gone through some traditional grammar-translation texts before approaching Orberg so I didn't use it.

It's a really great system. Familia Romana can stand by itself as an introduction to Latin grammar and vocabulary, but it's also integrated into this cosmos of additional materials that all build on each other. I wish there was something equivalent for Greek.

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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:15 pm

jeidsath wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:53 pm
Well, I've been dipping into the Vulgate as well, which is easy to read alongside the Greek text. However I can't always distinguish the Latin case, especially when it doesn't coincide exactly with the Latin case (which is what I'm most interested in).

I'm not sure how much help the Vulgate's Latin will be with Classical Latin. The Gospels were less help that I would have expected with Attic. But I hope that the difference between Vulgate and Classical Latin is not so large.

I also have a Greek/Latin Xenophon, which I may wind up devoting more time to. Hopefully I can find the same thing with Plato.
In the NT, Jerome sticks very close to the Greek text, even when it is not necessarily the best Latin, even by 3rd century colloquial standards. If you plan to jump from the the Vulgate to say, Vergil or Livy, let's just say it's a big jump (comparable to going from the NT to Thucydides or Euripides).

Another hint: at the beginning stages, Greek and Latin are very similar. The more you advance, the less similar they are. Still, having had Greek first should be a distinct advantage. My experience was Latin first, and I found myself saying "Greek really needs an ablative case. How they get along without it? What? They use the genitive and dative cover it? Strange..."

Can you please tell us more about your Xenophon in Greek and Latin? I'd love to see that.
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:21 pm

Constantinus Philo wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:36 pm
Ok just to let u know that the easiest Latin author for beginners is Cornelius Nepos
Nepos is nice, I think I mentioned in another thread that in an earlier period he was often used as a first advanced text and alternative to Caesar. Eutropius is easier, I think, but a lot more boring.
Don't try any of nineteenth century Latin translations of Plato, they are not accurate.
I'm afraid to ask, but why? Still, so glad to be living in the enlightened 21st century, where we get things right! :roll:
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by Constantinus Philo » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:37 pm

See my post on apologia 36b I have included there a Latin translation of the phrase under discussion which is completely wrong.
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by Scribo » Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:14 pm

Joel,

Orberg designed the course so that you can start dipping into real texts profitably from around mid way through the second book. He meant this to be done gradually and produced several ancillary texts. Reader versions of Caesar, The Aeneid, Plautus etc.

By the time you go through everything you should have a) covered most grammatical constructions b) internalised several sentence patterns and c) acquired a quasi-functional vocabulary.

Lingua Latina is quite an involved series. You don't have to finish it to profit from it. I dare say someone could finish vol 1 and jump into Eutropius very easily. Of course, you're then reading Eutropius. Sure, he had a cool life (didn't he invade Persia along with Julian?) but his versions are so, so, so boring. There's a reason he used to be such a popular beginners book pre-renaissance.
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by Callisper » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:36 am

jeidsath wrote:
Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:10 pm
What does it cover in total? I assume it’s targeted at classical Latin? When do I begin supplementing with real Latin?
It's targeted at classical Latin. The series takes one from the absolute beginning to reading slightly/somewhat adapted Virgil and Livy (among others). I would strongly encourage you to read as many supplementary materials, do as many of the exercises, etc. as possible. That will give you your best possible chance of getting as far as you can with made-up Latin, which I know is what you want. It would perhaps be unrealistic to try to reach the end of Roma Aeterna still reading fluently if you start out as a beginner and only read LLPSI (not the supplements).

I do not recommend 'supplementing with real Latin' - you'll have enough to do with reading all the supplementary materials to the series.

I heard someone managed to make good progress by starting again from the beginning of a chapter everytime they found the meaning of a sentence not sinking in. I don't know whether you have the stomach for such an approach.

The entire LLPSI plus supplementary volumes should give you some of the basic grounding for reading real Latin. At that point you can either decide to jump in or to work more with made-up Latin.

Made-up (pedagogical) Latin is much more workable an approach for Latin than for Greek, because there is much more of it out there (and fewer low-level mistakes are made by writers).

That said, I would recommend you learn the declensions and conjugations first, and then check everything you read against them. I know this rote memorization may seem unnecessary or 'painful' to you or not fit into your belief of how languages should be taught, but I do not think there is any other way to actually get to your goal than to knuckle down and memorize at some point. May as well get the hard stuff out of the way now.

This person suggested the same method: http://www.wcdrutgers.net/Latin.htm. Except that I can assure you a lot more than just reading and re-reading LLPSI 1 and 2 will be necessary before 'you can sit down and read Livy and understand what you're reading.' But if - after the morphology of Latin (considerably simpler than Greek) - you have really thoroughly learned the vocab of the whole series, I think you'd have gone at least half the way.

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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by will.dawe » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:33 am

When do I begin supplementing with real Latin?
You will have more real Latin in the second part of the course. Check from this chart:

Image

Offtopic

If someone wants to train reading and listening on beginning level, I would like to recommend "Cornelia" by Mima Maxey. It is a good companion to "Familia Romana": similar in vocabulary, similar in discussed topics, but is much more happy (Ørberg wrote a terrifying drama).

Actually, I never read "Cornelia", only listened its audiobook. Don't think it will give more in understanding of grammar, Ørberg's exercices and grammar addendums by other authors (Neumann, Carfagni) are very nice. However, the Cornelia's audiobook is recorded very well and storyline is lovely.

Cornelia is here [no links in first 10 posts]. Fine, just search for "Cornelia Dwane Thomas". Its free.

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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by Constantinus Philo » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:31 pm

Ha, how can it be happy she killed herself or is it another Cornelia
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by will.dawe » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:17 pm

Ha, how can it be happy she killed herself or is it another Cornelia
Definitely, we are talking about different girls named Cornelia.

Mima Maxey's Cornelia:
Salvete, discipuli. This is the story of a little American girl named Cornelia. Her life was different from yours, but not very different. You will readily understand the things that she did. I hope that you will like her and that you will enjoy the adventure of finding out about her in a language that is not your own. Valete, discipuli.
At the end of the book, Cornelia reads some old battle stories, but she is save at her home.

I remember another Latin story for beginners, "Cloelia - puella Rōmāna". It mentions cruel fate of Lucretia (victim of Sextus Tarquinius), but even that story is suitable for 12+ pupils and could be attributed to happy end stories.

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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by Constantinus Philo » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:43 pm

I think the surest and fastest way to learn Latin is to read the Latin authors from the very beginning. The process may be slowat first but it will get faster with experience.
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by jeidsath » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:13 am

Well I’ve managed 5 chapters so far, along with the exercises. I imagine that my progress will slow down soon, but knowing some Greek seems to provide quite an advantage.
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by RandyGibbons » Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:07 pm

5 chapters of Familia Romana?

Whatever it is, don't be in a rush! Read with humility, charity, and curiosity, as one of my professors says. Ørberg is telling you a carefully crafted story - enjoy it!

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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by will.dawe » Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:42 pm

I love the way Ørberg made very solid story: first, you read a chapter in which boys misbehave in the classroom and argue with teacher; then you switch to the exercises in which boys are punished to write additional exercises, but they continue tricking and cheating. So, line between reading and practicing grammar is somewhat vague, and every part of the book adds something new to the story.

Not to mention supplementary books, telling about the same events of the main story from position of secondary characters and adding many new details.

I was a little upset when the story of Familia Romana came to the end.

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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by jeidsath » Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:41 am

In chapter X: Canis amicus hominis est, ea bestia fera non est.

Does gender of the demonstratives switch like this in Latin? I was a bit surprised that ea would agree with bestia fera rather than canis amicus.
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:22 am

jeidsath wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:41 am
In chapter X: Canis amicus hominis est, ea bestia fera non est.

Does gender of the demonstratives switch like this in Latin? I was a bit surprised that ea would agree with bestia fera rather than canis amicus.
You have two independent clauses without a conjunction (asyndeton, if you like), each with its own subject and verb. While bestia could be seen in apposition to canis, it's still feminine, and any adjective has to agree with it in number, gender and case. Ea modifies bestia and not canis.
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by jeidsath » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:31 am

Oh, thank you. He means "this beast is not wild". I had thought "it is not a wild beast."
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by bedwere » Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:38 am

Ὁ κύων φίλος τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐστίν, ἐκεῖνο τὸ θηρίον ἄγριον οὐκ ἔστιν. :D

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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by jeidsath » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:55 pm

In XII, I’m seeing a lot if ac, which is glossed “= atque”. I assume it’s parallel to “nec = neque”. Given the unpronounceable-looking nature of ac, are these abbreviations rather than synonyms?
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by will.dawe » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:04 pm

jeidsath wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:55 pm
are these abbreviations rather than synonyms?
Wiktionary call it apocope (ἀποκοπή), so may be it is a variative form of the word?

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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by RandyGibbons » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:44 pm

I don't know what you mean by "the unpronounceable-looking nature of ac". But if I understand your question correctly, ac is not Ørberg's abbreviation of atque, they are alternative forms of the conjunction, both used widely. From the online Latin dictionary Glossa: atque or āc (atque is used before vowels and consonants, ac, in class. lang., only before consonants).

Yes, equivalent to nec and neque. Again from Glossa: nĕ-que or nec (used indifferently before vowels and consonants. The notion that nec in class. prose stands only before consonants is wholly unfounded. ...).

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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by jeidsath » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:07 pm

Well, it looked unpronounceable last night well I was up late with an upset baby and was thinking about it. Now it doesn't seem so bad. Is it ac or āc? Ørberg gives the first, and Lease claims the same in "The Use of Atque and Ac in Silver Latin" (1902).
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by RandyGibbons » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:54 pm

Is it ac or āc?
I definitely do not know. It was probably āc when your baby was agitating. But here's a challenge I'll throw out there (without knowing the answer): Is there a hypothetical use and position of ac in poetry that would tell us whether its ă or ā?

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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by jeidsath » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:51 pm

Hopefully Ørberg covers the Latin rules for scanning poetry before too long. I can see that it's similar to Greek, but not exactly the same, and I'd like to know all of the exceptions that I should keep my eyes out for.

Two great resources that I've found useful so far: 1) EXERCITIA LATINA all online with some basic Javascript to correct your answers 2) FABELLAE LATINAE with more reading practice
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:10 pm

jeidsath wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:07 pm
Well, it looked unpronounceable last night well I was up late with an upset baby and was thinking about it. Now it doesn't seem so bad. Is it ac or āc? Ørberg gives the first, and Lease claims the same in "The Use of Atque and Ac in Silver Latin" (1902).
OLD does not mark it as long:
OLD wrote:atque, ac conj. [ad- + -que1] FORMS: adque ACC. trag. 61, AUG. Anc. 4.30, CIL 14.2112.1.15; atque probably always used before a vowel or ‘h’; both forms are used before consonants.
However, as Randy implied, if it's always before a word beginning with a consonant, in poetry it will practically always be scanned as long by position, so poetry is of no help here. However, the combination -cr- does not always lengthen the preceding vowel, so if somewhere we could find ac followed by a word beginning with -r-, that might answer the question. I could find no such combination in a quick search of the Aeneid or the Metamorphoses.
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by jeidsath » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:14 pm

In chapter XVIII: facere/fierī. And apparently, despite being an -ere verb, it conjugates to faciunt? Not to mention fit/fīunt. Is this simply irregular, or is there rhyme and reason to it?
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by bedwere » Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:50 pm

Verbs of the Third Conjugation in -iō Facio is one of them
For the passive see: fīō , fiĕrī, factus sum,

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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:40 pm

jeidsath wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:14 pm
In chapter XVIII: facere/fierī. And apparently, despite being an -ere verb, it conjugates to faciunt? Not to mention fit/fīunt. Is this simply irregular, or is there rhyme and reason to it?
Third conjugation -io's are a subcategory of the third conjugation, perfectly regular except for having an -i- in the stem (but they really help with the fourth conjugation, which is practically the same with a few small difference, such as the -i- being long when it can, i.e., capis (you take) vs. audīs, (you hear), and of course the infinitive. As for fiō, for whatever reason it serves as the passive of of the present system of faciō, one of the few irregularities you will encounter in Latin.
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by naturalphilosopher » Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:02 am

I agree that Cornelia is a good companion to Lingua Latina. Cornelia was part of a 3 book curriculum for beginners in Latin, each of 40 chapters which synchronize well. Cornelia works best when read in parallel with its companion books, The New Latin Primer and Carolus et Maria. I'd estimate that the series teaches 500 or so words and gives the grammer to the level of the first 10 or 15 chapters of Lingua Latina. It's a good confidence builder.


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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by will.dawe » Sat Apr 27, 2019 8:16 am

naturalphilosopher wrote:
Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:05 am
Cornelia: https://archive.org/details/MN40039ucmf_6
And audio book of Cornelia.

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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by Cathexis » Sat Apr 27, 2019 1:02 pm

There are others in this series as well. For example, "Acta Muciorum," and, "Julia."
See here: https://www.amazon.com/Acta-Muciorum-La ... 2-fkmrnull

Hope this helps,

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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by jeidsath » Sat Apr 27, 2019 9:01 pm

In chapter XX.3 of Fabellae Latinae, "absentem cantat amīcam" was surprising to me. I had only seen the verb used transitively before this. Is "absentis amica" a specific song?
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Re: Ørberg’s Lingua Latina series

Post by Hylander » Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:47 am

Yes, the transitive use (which this is) is very common in poetry. absentem cantat amicam is the second half of a hexameter. Google tells me it's a modification of a line from Horace's Satires, the one about his trip to Brindisi, with the nocturnal emission, I think.

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