Looking for a memrise collaborator.

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Sohtnirybal
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Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Sohtnirybal » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:47 pm

Hello everybody

Remember this book Sprechen sie Attisch? "It was discused previously here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10924&p=202105&hili ... ch#p202105 "

Well, I don´t know if you are familiar with memrise app, in any case I think it´s a very useful app to memorize, learn, and in our case I really find it useful for example to learn the principal parts of verbs, and so on. I think that app is really good stuff to get familiar with greek, to memorize the main meanings of particles, prepositions(at least I speak from my own experience, the courses in the app makes you to get much more familiar and to learn vocabulary and main verbs, I think it´s a good stuff to neophytes in antique languagues)

Well, I made from the book -Sprechen sie Attisch- a memrise course, which I think could be really useful to memorize the vocabulary, the expressions and so on. What I´m looking for here is a collaborator, a friend who help me to correct mistakes, to add, for example, alternatives answers, to correct accents and so on and so forth, maybe to add audio files, and comments in general.

On the other hand I take advantage to promote the course and to make much persons study it, and memorize it.

Thanks and hope your answers.
M.

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by donhamiltontx » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:45 pm

Hi, there. Welcome to the Textkit community and enjoy your stay.

What did you name your course? I can not find anything under Sprechen sie Attisch at Memrise.
ἐς Τροίαν πειρώμενοι ἦνθον ᾿Αχαιοί,
καλλίστα παίδων: πείρᾳ θην πάντα τελεῖται.
Theocritus, Idyll 15

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Sohtnirybal » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:35 pm

Thanks, the course is here https://www.memrise.com/course/2204032/ ... ent-greek/ idk why it does not appear, it happens several times

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by donhamiltontx » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:08 am

Okay, I found it using the link you provided. But I still can't find it using the search box. I don't know how Memrise orders the titles of its courses. Perhaps there is a FAQ that I've been too lazy to find.
A trivial point perhaps, but in the title of the course, English should be capitalized as I have just typed it, and "an" should be "and": --> Sprechen Sie Attisch? (English and Ancient Greek)
Note that word has it on another forum I belong to that Memrise is going to put community courses like yours at another location. Here is the site with that information: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 14&t=10133 I myself am signed up at Memrise, but I never received that email. Nevertheless I assume it is true that Memrise will move the user-made courses.
At any rate, best of luck with the course you constructed. I know it took a lot of time and effort.
ἐς Τροίαν πειρώμενοι ἦνθον ᾿Αχαιοί,
καλλίστα παίδων: πείρᾳ θην πάντα τελεῖται.
Theocritus, Idyll 15

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by seneca2008 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:01 pm

I have briefly looked at your memrise course. I commend your industry but the translations into English are hardly idiomatic. “Well, Hello there!” has quite a different meaning in England than you might imagine. “How goes it” a literal translation of the German but utterly unidiomatic. ‘Very nice” is so bland in English that I am not sure it really captures “οὐκ ἄχαρις“.

Have you translated German into English or Greek into English?

This exemplifies the difficulty of translation. Whether you are satisfied with the result will depend on the goal you are seeking to achieve.

Good luck!

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Sohtnirybal » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:43 pm

seneca2008 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:01 pm
I have briefly looked at your memrise course. I commend your industry but the translations into English are hardly idiomatic. “Well, Hello there!” has quite a different meaning in England than you might imagine. “How goes it” a literal translation of the German but utterly unidiomatic. ‘Very nice” is so bland in English that I am not sure it really captures “οὐκ ἄχαρις“.

Have you translated German into English or Greek into English?

This exemplifies the difficulty of translation. Whether you are satisfied with the result will depend on the goal you are seeking to achieve.

Good luck!
Hallo, No I don't, I don't make any translation. I just take the translations that were proposed in the link I pasted formerly. Yes, you are right the translations seem to me so rigid (I'm not a english native speaker)and yes, I'm looking precisely for a collaborator to correct them and make more vividly those translations. I would add that this memrise course just taked me one entirely evening to maked it so you will see that It has more mistakes than virtues (My task was only to organize the info and tabulate it in an excel presentation then to upload it), but I think it´s an approach to learn this book, and yes I agree with you in the “οὐκ ἄχαρις“ for example, and in really other phrases that need to be explained (maybe gramatically and sintactically) but not only that but also comments that make complex the translations and not so flat, so yes I think what I did was just the first approach, but the course absolutely is to be made.

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:08 pm

Here is my proof-reading of 15 lists (42 - 57). I suggest you check what I think are mistakes against your other references:

Title: english an Ancient Greek -> English to Ancient Greek

43.1: παυτηνί -> ταυτηνί
43.7: νὲ Δία -> νὴ Δία
43.22: Andshe’s -> And she's
44.27: εἰσελήλυϙεν -> εἰσελήλυθεν
44.6: καῖ - καὶ
45.6: grls -> girls
46.16: you -> you?
47.13: tought -> tough
50.3: εῖρασατο - εἰργάσατο (perhaps)
51.3: English is wanting
51.4 Hat warnt have you vor that? -> What warrant have you for that?
54.9: ἐσι -> ἐστι
57.1: hat's -> what's
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Sohtnirybal » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:18 am

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:08 pm
Here is my proof-reading of 15 lists (42 - 57). I suggest you check what I think are mistakes against your other references:

Title: english an Ancient Greek -> English to Ancient Greek

43.1: παυτηνί -> ταυτηνί
43.7: νὲ Δία -> νὴ Δία
43.22: Andshe’s -> And she's
44.27: εἰσελήλυϙεν -> εἰσελήλυθεν
44.6: καῖ - καὶ
45.6: grls -> girls
46.16: you -> you?
47.13: tought -> tough
50.3: εῖρασατο - εἰργάσατο (perhaps)
51.3: English is wanting
51.4 Hat warnt have you vor that? -> What warrant have you for that?
54.9: ἐσι -> ἐστι
57.1: hat's -> what's
Woww, really apreciate your help. I'm going to put my hands on work, thank you. If you will continue to check mistakes can would like to suggest you something it´s that I prefer you focus your attention in greek more than in english, just because english answers are going to be re written at all.
seneca2008 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:01 pm
I have briefly looked at your memrise course. I commend your industry but the translations into English are hardly idiomatic. “Well, Hello there!” has quite a different meaning in England than you might imagine. “How goes it” a literal translation of the German but utterly unidiomatic. ‘Very nice” is so bland in English that I am not sure it really captures “οὐκ ἄχαρις“.

Have you translated German into English or Greek into English?

This exemplifies the difficulty of translation. Whether you are satisfied with the result will depend on the goal you are seeking to achieve.

Good luck!
I have a question for you, what do you think is the most acurrate expression in english that could express the force of the οὐκ ἄχαρις. Thanks.


In general I'll correct two things

1. Adjust the translation. It means I will favor an english translation easy to remember than an idiomatic one.
2. Correct and check the greek answers with the ones that original book get, https://archive.org/details/sprechensie ... g/page/n27 this to correct any greek mistake I could copy from the versions I take.

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:15 am

Sohtnirybal wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:18 am
Woww, really apreciate your help. I'm going to put my hands on work, thank you.
My numbering is off by 1. For example, 43.1: παυτηνί -> ταυτηνί is actually in 44:1.

I misread the layout of the Memrise page, i.e. I read "<43" as the beginning of a sequence "<43 ... />", ie "The following contains list 43", rather than "<43" as meaning "43 is to the left", ie "43 in the previous list"
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Sohtnirybal » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:51 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:15 am
Sohtnirybal wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:18 am
Woww, really apreciate your help. I'm going to put my hands on work, thank you.
My numbering is off by 1. For example, 43.1: παυτηνί -> ταυτηνί is actually in 44:1.

I misread the layout of the Memrise page, i.e. I read "<43" as the beginning of a sequence "<43 ... />", ie "The following contains list 43", rather than "<43" as meaning "43 is to the left", ie "43 in the previous list"
Hallo, I haven't reach in my revision to these parts yet, but I take note of what you said to me.

On the other hand your anotation was right but as I modify and duplicate levels (to intensify the phrases have been already learned) your anotacion in relation with the levels of the course gets unsettled, but your anotations are easy to follow since are the same ones that the original book follows.

In today´s revision I reached level 31 (called: wait) from the actual course ie: https://www.memrise.com/course/2204032/ ... e-attisch/

In relation with this last part I´m afraid if the english translations I propose are more flexive and less rigid than the idiomatic ones, what do you think? I apreciate if you take a look.

Thanks and Regards

M.

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:25 pm

Sohtnirybal wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:51 pm
In relation with this last part I´m afraid if the english translations I propose are more flexive and less rigid than the idiomatic ones, what do you think? I apreciate if you take a look.
Due to censorial policy where I live, we don't have access to archive.org, so I won't be able to check the Greek against J.'s book.

For the translations, I don't think it matters too much how good your English translations are. Pedagogical fashions have changed greatly. It is unlikely that beginners or lower intermediate students will use a resource such as what you are preparing. Grammatical rules are taught in abstract then applied to reading these days, rather then learning Greek by learning example sentences. I think that the expected modern users will be those with an intermediate level or higher, who want to improve the idiomaticity of their Greek compositions. How do you envision this memorise list being used - will people be memorizing your English renderings, or just the Greek?

That being said, in the list you asked for comment on, I think the force of the μῶν would be better expressed by a tagged sentence, "I didn't ..., did I?" or by some other culturally appropriate negative politeness marker, for example, "I hope, ...".
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Callisper » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:21 pm

There is a lot of odd stuff going on here.

The translator himself comments: “I think it's more important that the English and Greek express the same idea, even where the English idiom doesn't work the same way as the German.”

Here's the source for the translations and the comment - http://www.letsreadgreek.com/phrasebook ... sebook.pdf. I presume the OP is simply making a Memrise course of this, so let's not abjure his idiom.

But setting aside the language used, many of the translations seem not to quite sit well - and it goes beyond how natural or otherwise they sound in English. Just one example - "ἴθι χαίρων" (I am looking now at just one page of the Memrise - Level 7) does not mean "Be happy!" when it is used in Attic Greek. Nor is that the usual sense of "χαῖρε πολλά" (again, same page of Memrise).
seneca2008 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:01 pm
“Well, Hello there!” has quite a different meaning in England than you might imagine. “How goes it” a literal translation of the German but utterly unidiomatic. ‘Very nice” is so bland in English that I am not sure it really captures “οὐκ ἄχαρις“.
Regarding "well, hello there!": "ὦ χαῖρε" in Attic doesn't simply mean "hello" (to which "χαῖρε" alone would be pretty close) but rather something a bit different. It is often (to try and find something closer in English) "hail" (cf https://www.dailywritingtips.com/the-mu ... s-of-hail/ "hail, fellow well met!", which is pretty much it). It could be that the translator is trying to express that, or at least convey that the phrase means something more than "hello". I'm not sure how exactly you read the tone of the "Well, hello there!" exclamation - if it's the same as me then yes, obvs this has implications in English that the Greek does not have. :lol:

I agree that "very nice" is a horrible translation of "οὐκ ἄχαρις", and as discussed above, I think the problem goes beyond the English idiom. It doesn't capture the sense correctly. Maybe you said all that needs to be said on that one.


Quite apart from all that, the Greek itself seems dubious to me sometimes. Just one example is "εὐψύχει!" for "farewell!" (and I am choosing that from the one page I am looking at, the same one as above). No one writing a book called "Sprechen sie Attisch" should be using "εὐψύχει" rather than the obvious and famous "ἔρρωσο". (Nor does the writer offer "ἔρρωσο" anywhere else in the book, according to a search of the PDF.) I was doubtful of "ὑγίαινε!" too but at least it's used before the 1st century AD (once; by Herodian in a pretty corrupt passage). It is possible I am missing something here regarding the author's intent but I have found a few more such problems glancing through just a small selection of the Greek.

Besides all this, even if the book had perfect Greek and (somehow) perfect English translations, I'm not sure what the point is. Learning to say "hello" and "goodbye" is facile and is almost certainly not the key to your understanding Greek better. You (OP) talk about using Memrise to memorize useful things like principal parts - why spend your time on something like this?

For the record, I am not opposed to work like this book or to their aim; but in my view the matter of rounding off someone's efforts at spoken Greek by supplying them with otherwise hard-to-reach colloquial phrases is something that should follow a very strong command of the rest of the language, not precede it. Ask yourself, simply, how often a lack of knowledge on any given point would be a barrier to understand the Attic you read.

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:15 am

Callisper wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:21 pm
Quite apart from all that, the Greek itself seems dubious to me sometimes. Just one example is "εὐψύχει!" for "farewell!" (and I am choosing that from the one page I am looking at, the same one as above). No one writing a book called "Sprechen sie Attisch" should be using "εὐψύχει" rather than the obvious and famous "ἔρρωσο". (Nor does the writer offer "ἔρρωσο" anywhere else in the book, according to a search of the PDF.)
Is that a misprint? Or a wrong transcription?

In Demosthenes On the Crown (18).78 Philip's quoted letter has the valediction εὐτυχεῖτε. Moreover, some papyri I have read read use εὐτύχει.

The translation, "Fare well" seems a reasonable abbreviation for "Enjoy good fortune in all that you do", "Best of luck to you".
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Callisper » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:02 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:15 am
Is that a misprint? Or a wrong transcription?

In Demosthenes On the Crown (18).78 Philip's quoted letter has the valediction εὐτυχεῖτε. Moreover, some papyri I have read read use εὐτύχει.
Yes εὐτύχει is also a good Attic valediction along with ἔρρωσο. It should have occurred to me really; thanks for pointing it out.

Unfortunately I am unconvinced this could be a simple mistake of printing/copying. See LSJ:

II. εὐψύχει farewell! a common inscr. on tombs, IG12(2).393 (Mytilene), etc.

And then in the 1st century AD it started to be used in this sense in (non-Atticizing) literature. There should be no doubt then that the book-writer meant what he wrote.

Note also that not even in the above citation from LSJ does it sound like a standard valediction. Grave inscriptions and letters are very different (let alone face-to-face conversation). My guess is this has a very different tone from the good-bye with which you would wave off a friend after dinner.

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by seneca2008 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:18 pm

Has anyone read Eleanor Dickey, "Greek Forms of Address: From Herodotus to Lucian" 1996? It might prove helpful.

My earlier contribution was intended to be light hearted and also to underline the difficulty of translating and transposing 5th century Attic into a present day idiom and context, a problem of sociolinguistics.
The OP says :I have a question for you, what do you think is the most acurrate expression in english that could express the force of the οὐκ ἄχαρις. Thanks
The answer to that will depend on the context of the Greek and the purpose of the translation. I regret I can’t find any enthusiasm for contributing to this project but I am very interested in following the various contributions that have been made about Attic use.

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by jeidsath » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:27 pm

To add some difficulty to this enterprise: If you read the introduction to Sprechen sie attisch? (not translated), you'll find that he went out of his way to find examples of colloquial German, and part of what makes the book fun is that it is so colloquial.

However, those are the German colloquialisms of 100 years ago. Many of them sound fairly strange in German today.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by seneca2008 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:54 pm

Thank you Joel. I had wondered about this. So 5th century Attic to 1900s German to contemporary English. Better to ignore the German completely.

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Sohtnirybal » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:50 pm

Hello to everyone, this is going to be very simple.


1.
Callisper wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:21 pm
Besides all this, even if the book had perfect Greek and (somehow) perfect English translations, I'm not sure what the point is. Learning to say "hello" and "goodbye" is facile and is almost certainly not the key to your understanding Greek better. You (OP) talk about using Memrise to memorize useful things like principal parts - why spend your time on something like this?

For the record, I am not opposed to work like this book or to their aim; but in my view the matter of rounding off someone's efforts at spoken Greek by supplying them with otherwise hard-to-reach colloquial phrases is something that should follow a very strong command of the rest of the language, not precede it. Ask yourself, simply, how often a lack of knowledge on any given point would be a barrier to understand the Attic you read.
Why spend my time? Well I haven´t spent so much time in this memrise course, at least in the making and edition. Second I absolutely agree with you when you criticize the translations. But I do agree by the reasons Seneca did (the partner of the blog) all translations have to be observed under the cultural and social, psychological and historical views, so almost everybody with a little interest in Greek culture might intuit arbitrarity of translations and poorness of the translations the ones of the book I based to make the course, and also in the course itself because, that´s what happen with all translations ,they have a mantle of suspicion over each phrase that where poured from one language to other, I recognize the book have more faults than virtues, because it´s not a properly method to teach how to speak attic but a method to incorporate Greek in daily life, it´s to can express something happening in daily life in a language that almost is seems as an exotic language, in this view this course and this book I think are just born from a little dilettante joke. So there´s not a utility on its own but almost just a vague interest.
In any case I don’t think 15 minutes a day trying to learn some -not all- of these phrases could be consider a spend of time.
Have you ever try the official memrise courses? They work in the same way as the book and the course I did work. How? just simple you memorize one or two phrases at day, I know that approach never can replace any other approaches on the learning of a new language but I recognize also some advantages on this approach, first you get familiar with the language and you can say useful phrases for every day, second you learn vocab, you put your memory at work, eventually, you learn some verbs and how to conjugate them, and what seems more fantastic to me you can think how to say something in that language and you use what you have memorized and put them on work, it´s also the way some books as Assymil or books like those work, you learn some things and then you can eventually create and use what you learn to say what you want, more than this, this course will always take no more than 15 minutes in a day, the ones you can spend procrastinating in any other thing. In an estimated calculation of the benefit of the course and the time that is invested in the day to day (study and learning), I believe that the benefits are greater than the losses.
The translations are almost poor, I know that too, I think the course will must be study with an advisory, that almost all the Greek phrases are poor translations and that they have big nuances that dictionaries and linguistics in general make and that the course can´t because what the course offers is only the most simple function that this phrase did, but the learner have the responsibility to put flesh on that emptyness, to reincarnate these phrases, the learner have to reconstruct how Greeks used it and to make the nuances between one and another phrase, I think that in this way shows the only utility that I see in the course it´s that you can approach to a daily life, and to use those phrases you learn on composition and stuff like these.

As I don´t speak Greek I think learn some phrases will be useful in the tryings of learn to speak attic Greek.

I apologize for my english.

M

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:26 am

seneca2008 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:18 pm
Has anyone read Eleanor Dickey, "Greek Forms of Address: From Herodotus to Lucian" 1996? It might prove helpful.
Forms of address only really make sense within a society. I call my son "boy", like my dad called me, but in another cultural context that form of address would have certain uncomfortable undertones. Taking offence, feeling honoured or simply confirming the status quo of the social power relations that we live in is a highly nuanced topic that a (time-travelling) "tourist" with a phrasebook is not going to readily pick up on. Knowing when to use ω or not, and being able to choose correctly between, κυριε, επιστατα, φιλε, εταιρε, διδασκαλε, αδελφε, νεανισκε, κτλ. in the right context is a great social skill to have, no doubt, but it is a lot more dynamic than the fixed phrases given in the book we are considering.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Callisper » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:10 am

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:26 am
Forms of address only really make sense within a society. I call my son "boy", like my dad called me, but in another cultural context that form of address would have certain uncomfortable undertones. Taking offence, feeling honoured or simply confirming the status quo of the social power relations that we live in is a highly nuanced topic that a (time-travelling) "tourist" with a phrasebook is not going to readily pick up on. Knowing when to use ω or not, and being able to choose correctly between, κυριε, επιστατα, φιλε, εταιρε, διδασκαλε, αδελφε, νεανισκε, κτλ. in the right context is a great social skill to have, no doubt, but it is a lot more dynamic than the fixed phrases given in the book we are considering.
Not that I agree with many of your particular choices of example (while others are spot-on) but certainly wrt. the overall issue you raise, the book to which seneca2008 refers is exactly what you would want: a robust piece of scholarship that makes an effort to analyse such matters. I personally came to the book first precisely to understand 'when to use ω or not' e.g. in Plato.

It goes without saying that Dickey could have gone much further with her analysis. But a contribution like hers nonetheless furnished an important desideratum and should be regarded as necessary reading for any student of the language who cares about addresses in Greek.

Of course addresses are only a tiny portion of the domain of the book which this thread was intended to address. On that basis you could dismiss seneca's suggestion as above the remit of the topic of this thread. (And you would probably not be wrong to do so.) But I personally like seeing academically rigorous and relevant material being recommended, even if only tangentially useful to the OP.

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Callisper » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:20 am

@ Sohtnirybal

Your post in the main is cogent & reassuring.

Just picking up on this:
Sohtnirybal wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:50 pm
it´s not a properly method to teach how to speak attic but a method to incorporate Greek in daily life, it´s to can express something happening in daily life in a language that almost is seems as an exotic language,
but later:
Sohtnirybal wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:50 pm
As I don´t speak Greek I think learn some phrases will be useful in the tryings of learn to speak attic Greek.
I just hope you spend plenty of time on the things that will actually count towards helping speak Attic Greek. It sounds like you have a pretty good mind-set so I won't press this any further. I was concerned earlier because I frequently see people pay a lot of attention to niceties/small talk, which do nothing for them but propagate a (vaguely insulting) veneer of speaking the language (actually a difficult thing to do properly), while neglecting the hard-core learning that would be necessary for the main body of their communication to be in good Greek.

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:40 am

Sohtnirybal wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:50 pm
because it´s not a properly method to teach how to speak attic but a method to incorporate Greek in daily life, it´s to can express something happening in daily life in a language that almost is seems as an exotic language,
...
They work in the same way as the book and the course I did work. How? just simple you memorize one or two phrases at day, I know that approach never can replace any other approaches on the learning of a new language but I recognize also some advantages on this approach, first you get familiar with the language and you can say useful phrases for every day, second you learn vocab, you put your memory at work, eventually, you learn some verbs and how to conjugate them, and what seems more fantastic to me you can think how to say something in that language and you use what you have memorized and put them on work,
...
The translations are almost poor, I know that too, ...
Let me add an educated guess about the learning path that adult students using the method you have described might follow. For a few years, I was teaching adult ab initio English beginners - some of China's middle-aged millionaires that you've probably seen reports about. Introducing L2 (ie English) phrases, without L1 (in their case Chinese) equivalents invariably lead to initial confusion. Drawing pictures, miming, role-playing, using realia, whatever always lead to multiple interpretations of what the phrase meant. Even those who could correctly produce the phrase (parrot fashion) had varying degrees of understanding. Eavesdropping on their conversations in Chinese it was remarkable how diverse their understandings were. For example, holding up a piece of paper and saying, "This is paper." got understandings like "He says it is white", "we should write our names", "did you bring paper? I didn't (followed by pages being hastily ripped from somebody's notebook)", etc. The basic assumption was that there was meaning, but quite what that meaning was was open to a range of guesses. If somebody saw you using the phrases in daily life as you are suggesting, that is what it might be like.

Again for ab initio classes, but in this case classes when I explain the meaning of a phrase in Chinese, the learners invariably guessed wrongly about which part of the English carried which part of the meaning that they could get from the Chinese. Surprisingly, it was not always based on the word order: there was no such assumption of structure or logical arrangement.

After a few weeks of the parallel grammar lessons, those initial seemingly random understandings give way to what we could call comprehension of the language per se. At that point, another interesting thing happens. The memorised phrases are "corrected" to conform to the learnt grammar. What was memorised as, "She gets home at 6pm." might be produced as, "She get to home on 6pm". It is then a comparatively long time before the spoken and written grammar returns to the standard of the initially memorized phrases.

Do I think there is value in memorising phrases? Yes. They engender confidence and communicative competencies beyond the level expected of a beginner, and they provide standardised language samples that later attempts at grammar can be compared with. Do I think learning phrases is a substitute for learning grammar? No. They are different types of learning. Reciting phrases is not the productive use of language. Is there initial benefit from memorising phrases? Yes. Long-term? Perhaps not.

If the book were "animated", then that might be a different matter.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:49 am

Callisper wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:10 am
I personally like seeing academically rigorous and relevant material being recommended, even if only tangentially useful to the OP.
D's book is a sociolinguistic study, not a guidebook for usage. Studying something is always much safer than doing it. Trying to produce a language is an inherently high-risk venture. Simply studying it doesn't leave one open to the same sort of criticism.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:28 am

Callisper wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:10 am
certainly wrt. the overall issue you raise, the book to which seneca2008 refers is exactly what you would want: a robust piece of scholarship that makes an effort to analyse such matters.
...
It goes without saying that Dickey could have gone much further with her analysis. But a contribution like hers nonetheless furnished an important desideratum and should be regarded as necessary reading for any student of the language who cares about addresses in Greek.
I'm not sure that giving absolute beginners a robust piece of scholarship is necessarily a good idea. Within the learning sequence that you are advocating, somebody using the phrase book already has a good grasp of the language, and might want to understand nuanced idioms correctly. The OP has in mind a different path to perfection, with a beginner starting with phrases. Giving a robust piece of scholarship to complement the phrases in the memorise list may be more than a little overwhelming.

Imagine that in modern terms:
Concierge: Good morning sir. Welcome to our hotel. Is it your first time in our country.
Guest: Well, good morning to you. Yes. It is.
Concierge: On behalf of the National Tourism Commission, I'd like to offer you a complementary 30 page phrase book and an academically sound 300 page sociolinguistic study of the forms of address used in our country.
Guest: Thank you very much.
Concierge: Enjoy your stay.
Guest: Thank you. I feel closer to the language already.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:59 am

Callisper wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:10 am
On that basis you could dismiss seneca's suggestion as above the remit of the topic of this thread. (And you would probably not be wrong to do so.)
I assume you are using "you" here in reference to people in general. I personally am not dismissing Seneca's suggestion or ranking it as above the method suggested by the OP. I pointing out that there us a different type of learning involved in the two approaches, I am also half implying that it is beyond (outside the scope of and of equal value to) the approach suggested. The simplified formal address given to Herr Schulz doesn't adequately cover the Greek idiom, so it is inadequate, but nobody expects a work for beginners to be exhaustive.

Most people expect that beginners material should not teach incorrect language, but that it at least teaches a subset of the correct language that can be supplemented later.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by seneca2008 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:18 pm

Its not very satisfactory that this thread has descended into what seems like irrelevant nit-picking or simply restating what has already been said. But perhaps that's inevitable and I should by now be used to it.

Its perfectly ridiculous to think I intended the OP to read Dickey. I thought others might be interested.

The arguments for and against oral methods and resources like " Sprechen sie Attisch" have been endlessly and tediously rehearsed. I have no interest in reheating them.

End of rant which requires no reply or comment.

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Callisper » Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:08 pm

Not one thing I wrote was intended for anyone's benefit except the OP's nor could anyone who made the slightest effort to comprehend it consider it 'nit-picking.' (Or irrelevant.) Moreover it has nothing to do whatsoever with "the arguments for and against oral methods" and everything to do with this particular book.

Nevertheless as a large body of text has now been placed above which is indeed overly digressive or of scant relevance to the OP I would like to summarize my outlook for his/her sake:

1) The translations are terrible - you, OP, are aware of that - but realize that correct understanding of the phrases in question requires, as with all your study of Greek vocabulary, an inspection of usage in Attic. Someone speaking native English will not give you what you really need, simply by cleaning up the English idiom.
2) The book's Greek is hardly Attic, as I demonstrated. I assume that your goal is to speak Attic primarily so you can better read/understand Attic. This again you could fix with an inspection of usage in Attic. Everyone wants short-cuts and quite rightly: but material of less-than-academic rigour must then be avoided.
3) Phrases for everyday conversation should be regarded as a triviality and while fine for fun (if you like), I just hope you are also doing the main work of learning Attic (by the oral or any other method), and do not believe the practice of such phrases will itself lead to 'fluency,' as many do, following the practice of modern-language teaching. The reason I wished to subjoin this remark is explained in my penultimate post above.

@ ἑκηβόλος: I am sure the OP appreciated the work you were doing on his list before my initial comment. I'm sure he'd be grateful if you decide to continue it. If you wish to generate an extended discussion of anything I have brought up, it would be better to open a separate thread or (if you see me as main correspondent) to PM me.

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:36 am

@Sohtnirybal
Do you know the Greek alphabet yet? Can you read the Greek in the phrasebook or are you just arranging your learning material now?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:39 am

@Callisper
The extended replies to various points was not intended as a philibuster move to bury the points you made. Getting them out of the way (into another thread) to not distract attention from what you are saying seems a bit extreme. This is not a wiki (a virtual palimpset) where others can edit what you have written. This is a forum (a multiway conversation) where only the poster has ownership and the right to change what they have written. What each person says has their screen name with it. People reading a thread know what opinions are yours. Having a range of opinions in the same thread will allow yours to be considered alongside whatever other opinions are posted.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:48 am

Since it is central to this discussion, the unspoken assumptions about "Attic" could be explicated.

Presumably, the compiler of the phrase book believed he was writing an Attic phrase book. He may have believed that the (Attic) Koine was a form of Attic. Lucian, despite his vocabulary, presumably also believed he was writing Attic when he was trying to write Attic, and his readers would probably have accepted it as such. Writers during the Byzantine millennium also believed they were writing in Attic (among other styles). That suggests that there are numerous broader definitions of what consitutes Attic. The narrow way defining Attic is to say that it is limited to the way that Greek was spoken and written in Attica during a small window of time and limited to only certain styles or authours.

Modern conversational approaches to teaching and learning that produce "Attic" in conversation necessarily follow one of the broader definitions of Attic - because speakers are not limited in time and space to the original time and place where Attic was born.

If the compiler of the phrase book had held a narrow definition of what constitutes Attic, he may have produced something that conformed more closely to that definition. However, he seems to have held one or other of the broader views.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Sohtnirybal » Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:00 am


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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by nate.a » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:02 am

Hi there,

I have finished the first chapter of your course and would gladly help with the editing in line with your two objectives.

Rather than read through the entire course in one slog I would prefer to work through it at a learning pace with a correct-as-you-go approach. I have found this has worked best when editing my own courses: I find it more thorough and time efficient.

In light of the contributions from others in the discussion above, we would need to collaborate on what exactly would be edited and how closely you wanted to stick to the Sprechen Sie Attisch Greek entries and their English translations.

Let me know,

Nathaniel

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Sohtnirybal » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:24 am

Going back to what really matters me and to the unique reason I open a post, finally a collaborator.

I'm gladly with your help Nate.a I will write you a private message also I will make you a memrise collaborator (it means you can edit the course too)

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