Incorporation Xen. Mem. 3, 9, 12

Here you can discuss all things Ancient Greek. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Greek, and more.
Post Reply
User avatar
Constantinus Philo
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1403
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:04 pm

Incorporation Xen. Mem. 3, 9, 12

Post by Constantinus Philo »

I think this is an incorporation: εν ω γαρ αν τις πράγματι μη πειθηται τω ευ λέγοντι αμαρτησεται δηπου.
Semper Fidelis

User avatar
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1739
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: Incorporation Xen. Mem. 3, 9, 12

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

What do you mean by "incorporation?"
N.E. Barry Hofstetter

Cuncta mortalia incerta...

User avatar
Constantinus Philo
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1403
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:04 pm

Re: Incorporation Xen. Mem. 3, 9, 12

Post by Constantinus Philo »

Invorporation is inclusion of the antecedent into its relative clause like here πράγματι is included into rel. cl. starting with ω.
Semper Fidelis

User avatar
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1739
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: Incorporation Xen. Mem. 3, 9, 12

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Okay, I thought so, most grammars call it "attraction." It would help if you posted more context with your questions:

ειʼ δέ τις πρὸς ταῦτα λέγοι ὅτι τῷ τυράννῳ ἔξεστι μὴ πείθεσθαι τοῖς ὀρθῶς λέγουσι, καὶ πῶς ἄν, ἔφη, ἐξείη μὴ πείθεσθαι, ἐπικειμένης γε ζημίας, ἐάν τις τῷ εὖ λέγοντι μὴ πείθηται; ἐν ᾧ γὰρ ἄν τις πράγματι μὴ πείθηται τῷ εὖ λέγοντι, ἁμαρτήσεται δήπου, ἁμαρτάνων δὲ ζημιωθήσεται.

And no, I don't think it is, rather ἐν ᾧ ... πράγματι, the relative is used adjectively with πράγματι.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter

Cuncta mortalia incerta...

User avatar
jeidsath
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Incorporation Xen. Mem. 3, 9, 12

Post by jeidsath »

Incorporation and attraction are not the same thing. See Smyth 2536-2538.
2536. Incorporation.—The antecedent taken up into the relative clause is said to be incorporated. The relative and antecedent then stand in the same case, the relative agreeing adjectively with its antecedent. If the antecedent is a substantive, it often stands at the end of the relative clause, and commonly has no article. An antecedent in the nominative or accusative is more frequently incorporated than one in the genitive or dative.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

User avatar
Constantinus Philo
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1403
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:04 pm

Re: Incorporation Xen. Mem. 3, 9, 12

Post by Constantinus Philo »

That is εν ω πραγματι is equivalent to εν τούτω πράγματι εν ω γαρ αν τις μη πειθηται....in this case it is invorporation.
Semper Fidelis

Hylander
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2504
Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Re: Incorporation Xen. Mem. 3, 9, 12

Post by Hylander »

Since this is a conditional or general relative clause, it would probably be εν πράγματι εν ω...

But yes this is incorporation without attraction.
Bill Walderman

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 4790
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Incorporation Xen. Mem. 3, 9, 12

Post by mwh »

Deleted as duplicating Hylander.
Last edited by mwh on Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 4790
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Incorporation Xen. Mem. 3, 9, 12

Post by mwh »

It would be a mistake to think of ἐν ᾧ γὰρ ἄν τις πράγματι μὴ πείθηται as in any way abnormal.

User avatar
Barry Hofstetter
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 1739
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:22 pm

Re: Incorporation Xen. Mem. 3, 9, 12

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Hylander wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:25 pm Since this is a conditional or general relative clause, it would probably be εν πράγματι εν ω...

But yes this is incorporation without attraction.
Exactly how I would have explained it, but apparently I've been using non-standard terminology, and so appreciate the clarification and the reference in Smyth as well.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter

Cuncta mortalia incerta...

Post Reply