Mimnermus Fr. 2

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jeidsath
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Mimnermus Fr. 2

Post by jeidsath » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:32 am

ἡμεῖς δ’, οἷά τε φύλλα φύει πολυάνθεμος ὥρη 1 ἔαρος, ὅτ’ αἶψ’ αὐγῆις αὔξεται ἠελίου, 2 τοῖς ἴκελοι πήχυιον ἐπὶ χρόνον ἄνθεσιν ἥβης 3 τερπόμεθα,
But we, like the leaves the much-blossoming season of spring grows, when they grow in a spurt with rays of the sun, like to these we enjoy for a span of time the blossoms of youth,
. πρὸς θεῶν εἰδότες οὔτε κακὸν 4 οὔτ’ ἀγαθόν· Κῆρες δὲ παρεστήκασι μέλαιναι, (5) ἡ μὲν ἔχουσα τέλος γήραος ἀργαλέου, 6 ἡ δ’ ἑτέρη θανάτοιο·
by (from?) the Gods, blind to evil and to good. But black fates are stationed beside, the one holding the end of grievous old age, the other of death.
. μίνυνθα δὲ γίνεται ἥβης 7 καρπός, ὅσον τ’ ἐπὶ γῆν κίδναται ἠέλιος. 8
The fruit of youth appears for a short time, just as long as it takes for sun to spread [its light at dawn].
αὐτὰρ ἐπὴν δὴ τοῦτο τέλος παραμείψεται ὥρης, 9 αὐτίκα δὴ τεθνάναι βέλτιον ἢ βίοτος· @1 (10)
But then when he passes this limit of the season, then at once is it better for him to die than [have] life.
πολλὰ γὰρ ἐν θυμῶι κακὰ γίνεται· ἄλλοτε οἶκος 11 τρυχοῦται, πενίης δ’ ἔργ’ ὀδυνηρὰ πέλει· 12
For many bad things appear in life. Then to the one consuming his substance, the work of poverty becomes painful.
ἄλλος δ’ αὖ παίδων ἐπιδεύεται, ὧν τε μάλιστα 13 ἱμείρων κατὰ γῆς ἔρχεται εἰς Ἀΐδην· 14
And again to another in lack of children, then (τε?) he is most of all desiring them as he makes his way over earth to Hades.
ἄλλος νοῦσον ἔχει θυμοφθόρον· οὐδέ τίς ἐστιν (15) ἀνθρώπων ὧι Ζεὺς μὴ κακὰ πολλὰ διδοῖ. 16
Another is sick to death. There is no one of mankind to whom Zeus does not give many evils.

Note — I tried to relate lines 11-> with the statement about old age ruining everything. I felt that the “ἄλλοτε” of line 11 and the “τε” of line 13 had some sort of temporal significance, and interpreted them as “then”, but maybe I’m mistaken.
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Re: Mimnermus Fr. 2

Post by anphph » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:56 pm

jeidsath wrote:And again to another in lack of children, then (τε?) he is most of all desiring them as he makes his way over earth to Hades.

Note — I tried to relate lines 11-> with the statement about old age ruining everything. I felt that the “ἄλλοτε” of line 11 and the “τε” of line 13 had some sort of temporal significance, and interpreted them as “then”, but maybe I’m mistaken.
On this passage concerning τε, Archibald Allen's commentary links to Denniston's page on καί with relatives in epic (page 321f.).
Sometimes καί contrasts the objective reality of an idea with its subjective reality or with the unreality of something [...]: hence in tranlsating examples of this class the stressed word is some part of the verb 'to be', or a auxiliary. This use of καί has noot been adequately recognized.
He then proceeds to quote from examples of καί in relative clauses. I am not sure how this is pertinent.

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Re: Mimnermus Fr. 2

Post by jeidsath » Thu Oct 18, 2018 2:32 pm

Re-reading it this morning, I think that I really flubbed with the temporal stuff. It doesn’t need to be made explicity like that — the meaning comes through well enough anyway. “To the one” in my English is especially cringeworthy.

However, αλλοτε and τε still don’t make perfect sense to me. I’ll look into the Denniston reference and see if I can find any explanation.

EDIT: In my edition of Denniston, 2.1 and 2.8 are discussed on pages 522 and 524. It’s called a τε of habitual action in both places.
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Re: Mimnermus Fr. 2

Post by Hylander » Thu Oct 18, 2018 4:01 pm

αὔξεται -- singular; what is the subject?

εἰδότες -- "knowing" probably not "blind to"; good and ill probably not in the moral sense (this is not Genesis); probably "knowing [in youth] neither good nor evil that will come from the gods".

κίδναται -- passive

παραμείψεται -- must be passive; subject is τοῦτο τέλος ὥρης

βίοτος -- "life"

ἐν θυμῶι -- more like "in one's soul/spirit/seat of the emotions"

ἄλλοτε οἶκος τρυχοῦται, πενίης δ’ ἔργ’ ὀδυνηρὰ πέλει -- "sometimes [a man's] assets are wiped out and the labors of poverty become painful" or more likely "the painful labors of poverty come to be [for a man]". Epic dialect is anarthrous.

ἄλλος δ’ αὖ παίδων ἐπιδεύεται, ὧν τε μάλιστα ἱμείρων κατὰ γῆς ἔρχεται εἰς Ἀΐδην· -- "and/but/in contrast another man lacks children which he goes down from (κατὰ) earth to Hades desiring most of all"

ὧν τε -- epic τε; see Smyth 2970; Denniston pp. 520 ff. The meaning and function of this type of τε are not fully understood, and neither Smyth nor Denniston is the last word on the subject. C. Ruigh wrote a 1000-page treatise Autour de τε épique, but his conclusions are apparently not universally accepted.
Last edited by Hylander on Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Mimnermus Fr. 2

Post by mwh » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:00 pm

Two quick notes:
παραμειψεται can’t be passive, must be middle, apparently intransitive, oddly. Aor.subj.
κατα γης not down from earth but under the earth.

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Re: Mimnermus Fr. 2

Post by anphph » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:12 pm

Hylander wrote:ὧν τε -- epic τε; see Smyth 2970; Denniston pp. 520 ff. The meaning and function of this type of τε are not fully understood, and neither Smyth nor Denniston are the last word on the subject. C. Ruigh wrote a 1000-page treatise Autour de τε épique, but his conclusions are apparently not universally accepted.
Was I using another edition of Denniston? There was nothing there of this sort. Thanks Hylander for the correct reference.
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Re: Mimnermus Fr. 2

Post by Hylander » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:15 pm

παραμειψεται can’t be passive, must be middle, apparently intransitive, oddly. Aor.subj.
I missed this. Of course it must be subjunctive with επην and it's a short-form aorist.
Was I using another edition of Denniston? There was nothing there of this sort.
Look for the discussion of epic τε.

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Re: Mimnermus Fr. 2

Post by jeidsath » Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:39 pm

Thanks everyone
αὔξεται -- singular; what is the subject?
The φύλλα
παραμειψεται can’t be passive, must be middle, apparently intransitive, oddly. Aor.subj.
I thought that the subject παραμειψεται would become the subject of τεθνάναι?

I'll read the epic τε disucussion in Denniston. I had looked up the discussion in the LSJ, but I wouldn't mind a fuller treatment.
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Re: Mimnermus Fr. 2

Post by mwh » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:13 pm

jeidsath wrote:I thought that the subject παραμειψεται would become the subject of τεθνάναι?

I'll read the epic τε disucussion in Denniston. I had looked up the discussion in the LSJ, but I wouldn't mind a fuller treatment.
He’s talking about us (all of us), not an unspecified him; there’s no switch to 3 sing., and τεθναναι has no subject. To err is human, and to be dead is better than life (once you're over 24). The subject of παραμειψεται must be τοῦτο τέλος ὥρης as Hylander said. The odd use of the verb (without an object) is paralleled at fr. 3 W. το πριν εων καλλιστος, επην παραμειψεται ωρη, … (which it might be tempting to change to ωρην, but the two passages protect one another).

You won’t come to much harm—in fact I don’t think you’ll come to any—if you think of τε following a relative as semantically empty and as having merely metrical function (cf. 1 οια τε, 8 οσον τε). And in other places I like to think of it as a reduced τοι.

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Re: Mimnermus Fr. 2

Post by jeidsath » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:58 pm

εἰδότες -- "knowing" probably not "blind to"; good and ill probably not in the moral sense (this is not Genesis); probably "knowing [in youth] neither good nor evil that will come from the gods".
Right, I wasn't thinking of good and evil in the moral sense. I thought that the sense might be similar to what older men say about the youth today: "they don't know how good they've got it". And for the verb, similar to the usage of εἰδότες in Euthyphro 4e, describing how his relatives don't understand why he's prosecuting his father: "κακῶς εἰδότες, ὦ Σώκρατες, τὸ θεῖον ὡς ἔχει τοῦ ὁσίου τε πέρι καὶ τοῦ ἀνοσίου."
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Re: Mimnermus Fr. 2

Post by Hylander » Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:14 pm

κακῶς εἰδότες, ὦ Σώκρατες, τὸ θεῖον ὡς ἔχει τοῦ ὁσίου τε πέρι καὶ τοῦ ἀνοσίου -- This isn't Genesis, either. This doesn't mean "not knowing good or evil" in the sense of Genesis; it means something more like "having a poor understanding of the attitude of the divine towards what is holy and what is unholy", but as the dialogue proceeds it becomes clear that Euthyphon has no idea what he's talking about -- this is just word salad -- and it ends as E. discovers he has other pressing business to attend to and can't possibly stick around for the onslaught of S.'s probing questions.

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