'You will look (intransitive = "appear")", "it will be seen (to be)" or "in appearance (it is or you will be)"?‘ἀλλὰ χρυσοῦν στέφανον φορήσω.’ — ‘εἰ ἅπαξ ἐπιθυμεῖς στεφάνου, ῥόδινον λαβὼν περίθου: ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον.’
Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.19.29
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Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.19.29
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
I think it makes best sense as the dative from ὄψις, "more elegant in appearance."
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
In that case, why accusative?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
Future οψομαι is active in meaning, not passive.
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
"You'll look nicer." (οψει intrans., κομψ. adverb.) And smell sweeter, he could have added.
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
Are you thinking of ὀφθήσῃ ?Hylander wrote:Future οψομαι is active in meaning, not passive.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
ἑκηβόλος wrote:'You will look (intransitive = "appear")"Epictetus, Discourses 1.19.29 wrote:‘ἀλλὰ χρυσοῦν στέφανον φορήσω.’ — ‘εἰ ἅπαξ ἐπιθυμεῖς στεφάνου, ῥόδινον λαβὼν περίθου: ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον.’
I seem to have used English to assume that ὁράω even has an intransitive in my OP. I can't find evidence of that.mwh wrote:"You'll look nicer." (οψει intrans., κομψ. adverb.) And smell sweeter, he could have added.
Are there other examples of intransitive use?
[Edit: Some commentary taken out.]
Last edited by ἑκηβόλος on Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
I have another idea...
Taking ὄψεται in the LSJ Senses II.2 sense
Alternatively and similarly, given the era of the work, it might have the sense that Matthew uses it in:
Taking ὄψεται in the LSJ Senses II.2 sense
To quote those examples:2. see to, “ἴδε πῶμα” Od.8.443 ; look out for, provide, “τινί τι” S.Aj. 1165 (anap.), Theoc.15.2 ; “πρόβατον εἰς ὁλοκάρπωσιν” LXX Ge.22.8.
Od.8.443 wrote:αὐτὸς νῦν ἴδε πῶμα, θοῶς δ᾽ ἐπὶ δεσμὸν ἴηλον,
S.Aj. 1163 - 1167 wrote:ἔσται μεγάλης ἔριδός τις ἀγών.
ἀλλ᾽ ὡς δύνασαι, Τεῦκρε, ταχύνας
σπεῦσον κοίλην κάπετόν τιν᾽ ἰδεῖν
τῷδ᾽, ἔνθα βροτοῖς τὸν ἀείμνηστον
τάφον εὐρώεντα καθέξει.
In this usage of ὁράω there is a noun of what is provided or prepared. Taking the future ὄψει in this sense, followed by the accusative singular masculine κομψότερον, the phrase could mean "you will provide (for yourself) a more elegant (one / crown).Genesis 22:8 wrote:εἶπεν δὲ Αβρααμ ὁ θεὸς ὄψεται ἑαυτῷ πρόβατον εἰς ὁλοκάρπωσιν, τέκνον
אֱלֹהִ֞ים יִרְאֶה־לֹּ֥ו הַשֶּׂ֛ה - where רָאָה = "see"
Alternatively and similarly, given the era of the work, it might have the sense that Matthew uses it in:
Matthew 27:4 wrote:Τότε ἰδὼν Ἰούδας ὁ παραδιδοὺς αὐτὸν ὅτι κατεκρίθη, μεταμεληθεὶς ἀπέστρεψεν τὰ τριάκοντα ἀργύρια τοῖς ἀρχιερεῦσιν καὶ τοῖς πρεσβυτέροις, 4 λέγων, Ἥμαρτον παραδοὺς αἷμα ἀθῷον. Οἱ δὲ εἶπον, Τί πρὸς ἡμᾶς; Σὺ ὄψει.
Based on these two dialogues between Judas and the elders and between Pilate and the crowd, which is similar to the usage above, but different in that it seems to imply that an action should be carried out, ὄψει ... κομψότερον, with the future taken as a statement of fact rather than command and the comparative as an adverbial, the phrase could mean, "You will see to (the provision of a crown for yourself) in a more refined manner".Matthew 27:24 wrote:δὼν δὲ ὁ Πιλάτος ὅτι οὐδὲν ὠφελεῖ, ἀλλὰ μᾶλλον θόρυβος γίνεται, λαβὼν ὕδωρ, ἀπενίψατο τὰς χεῖρας ἀπέναντι τοῦ ὄχλου, λέγων, Ἀθῷός εἰμι ἀπὸ τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ δικαίου τούτου· ὑμεῖς ὄψεσθε.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
MWH is correct. See the LSJ:
However, here is a deeper mystery for everyone. The Digital Loeb's version:5. c. acc. cogn., like βλέπω 11, look so and so, “δεινὸν ὁρῶν ὄσσοισι” Hes.Sc.426 ; “ὁρᾶν ἀλκάν” Pi.O.9.111 ; “ἔαρ ὁρόωσα Νύχεια” Theoc.13.45 ; also ἡδέως ὁρᾶν look pleasant, E.IA1122: c. acc., “κακῶς ὁρᾶν τινα” Philostr.VA7.42.
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
As a complement to [στέφανον] ῥόδινον.ἑκηβόλος wrote:In that case, why accusative?
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
Is case regularly preserved across a γάρ ?Barry Hofstetter wrote:As a complement to [στέφανον] ῥόδινον.ἑκηβόλος wrote:In that case, why accusative?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
ekηβολε, You have to learn whom to heed, and whom not.
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
I actually had that same thought when I had a second look at the phrase in question in context. Without γάρ I think my proposed reading of the text is likely. γάρ however practically requires a main verb form or the equivalent. Since ὁράω can be used of appearance (LSJ), it looks like (!) ὄψει is the verb.ἑκηβόλος wrote:Is case regularly preserved across a γάρ ?Barry Hofstetter wrote:As a complement to [στέφανον] ῥόδινον.ἑκηβόλος wrote:In that case, why accusative?
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
I'm sure there's a Gorgon joke there somewhere.jeidsath wrote:However, here is a deeper mystery for everyone. The Digital Loeb's version:
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
If you're going to be eaten by a snake, you might as well look good doing it.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
Very punny indeed.Barry Hofstetter wrote:Since ὁράω can be used of appearance (LSJ), it looks like (!) ὄψει is the verb.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
For a conjunctive yes,but does γὰρ allow an understood repitition? My impression (gotten rightly or wrongly) is that γὰρ introduces a syntactically independent clause.mwh wrote:ekηβολε, You have to learn whom to heed, and whom not.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
You're right. That οψει is verb should never have been questioned.
And κομψοτερον is obviously a misprint for κομφότερον.
And κομψοτερον is obviously a misprint for κομφότερον.
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Re: Parsing ὄψει γὰρ κομψότερον in Epictetus, Discourses 1.1
I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that suggestion. The logic seems somewhat serpentine, but perhaps that's my punishment for a hasty reading of the text.mwh wrote:
And κομψοτερον is obviously a misprint for κομφότερον.
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