Medea

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anphph
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Re: Medea

Post by anphph » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:03 pm

λέγειν τε δεινός
δεινός infinitive is a regular way of saying "stupendous at X". In this context, with the negative imperative coming before, it means something like "Don't you be εὐσχήμων and [τε] don't give me your smart talk."

Just an example,
τὸ γὰρ μὴ αἰσχυνθῆναι ὅτι αὐτίκα ὑπ' ἐμοῦ ἐξελεγχθήσονται ἔργῳ, ἐπειδὰν μηδ' ὁπωστιοῦν φαίνωμαι δεινὸς λέγειν, τοῦτό μοι ἔδοξεν αὐτῶν ἀναισχυντότατον εἶναι, εἰ μὴ ἄρα δεινὸν καλοῦσιν οὗτοι λέγειν τὸν τἀληθῆ λέγοντα
Plato, Apology 17b1-5
Last edited by anphph on Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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jeidsath
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Re: Medea

Post by jeidsath » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:17 pm

Of course, that is obvious now. My brain must not work at airports.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
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Hylander
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Re: Medea

Post by Hylander » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:20 pm

γλώσσῃ γὰρ αὐχῶν τἄδικ᾽ εὖ περιστελεῖν -- something like "boasting that he will conceal his evil deeds well with his tongue"

mwh
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Re: Medea

Post by mwh » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:59 pm

αυχῶν not boasting but having confidence or priding himself: Barrett on Hipp. 952-5 (a comparable passage).

Joel: Respect σοφός masculine. (He not It.)
“and” for αλλά is good. But I’m not sure you get the construction here. Lit.” you ought to have made this marriage after persuading me (i.e. gaining my approval), not [instead of that] …”.

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jeidsath
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Re: Medea

Post by jeidsath » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:48 am

Thanks all.

I think that I felt that “instead of” had to be the sense, but wasn’t sure if that construction fit it.

600-602

οἶσθ᾽ ὡς μέτευξαι, καὶ σοφωτέρα φανῇ;
τὰ χρηστὰ μή σοι λυπρὰ φαίνεσθαι ποτέ,
μηδ᾽ εὐτυχοῦσα δυστυχὴς εἶναι δοκεῖν.

Do you know how to change your prayer and appear wiser? Ask that what is useful never appear a grief for you, nor being fortunate to appear to yourself to be wretched.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.

mwh
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Re: Medea

Post by mwh » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:04 am

Joel, I’m a bit worried about your “translations.” Even when they’re “accurate,” are you fully aware of just how much of the meaning they lose and distort? I hope you’re using them mainly as a means of conveying your understanding of how the grammar works, and are developing the ability to read the Greek on its own terms, rather than through the terribly inadequate medium of English.
(A very minor example here: εὐτυχοῦσα δυστυχής; also χρηστά ... λυπρά.)

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jeidsath
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Re: Medea

Post by jeidsath » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:42 am

I only translate so that I can get corrections here, and only the hard bits that I'm not certain of. I wouldn't mind being able to translate well, as it seems to be a discipline, but I can't read or write Greek easily yet, so I would like to get there first.

On Hylander's advice, I've glanced at Kovacs every so often when I have a problem, and he is sometimes very helpful. But it's clear in any long stretch of the play, that his version is not Euripides' version.

My plan with Medea is, like other texts, to get all of Medea to the point where I can re-read it all easily, and revisit it periodically.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.

Hylander
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Re: Medea

Post by Hylander » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:49 pm

Joel, my suggestion was to use Kovacs (or some other relatively literal translation, if you think Kovacs is "not Euripides") to check yourself on the passages that you don't post here, to make sure your understanding is correct and you really see how the syntax works, not just to glance at the translation when you encounter difficulties. Short of actually taking a course where the text is gone through line by line, I think you need more guidance than you can possibly get here. This is hard work.

The Aris & Phillips series typically provides a facing page translation, along with notes. The translation is usually designed to be literal enough to take the place of notes on grammar and syntax. There is a Medea available in this series:

https://www.amazon.com/Euripides-Medea- ... d+phillips

I don't have this and can't vouch for it, but it may be something you might consider if you don't like the Loeb.

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jeidsath
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Re: Medea

Post by jeidsath » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:08 pm

I do like the Loeb, very much, and I find it useful. I didn't mean the above that as any slight against Kovacs. I just meant that when I read through a paragraph in the Greek, which I understand, and then read through the same in English, I notice that the feeling isn't really the same. I'm noticing this especially in Euripides, probably because it is drama. This is, as mwh says, a problem with translation in general, and can never be solved.

And I am finding everyone's help here very useful. For example, catching the future tenses in the earlier passage is something that I wouldn't have noticed until it was pointed out for me specifically. Sure, a course would be more useful in some ways. In other ways, I think that I would have to search for a long time to get the level of private tutoring that goes on here.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.

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Re: Medea

Post by jeidsath » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:11 pm

ἔρωτες ὑπὲρ μὲν ἄγαν
ἐλθόντες οὐκ εὐδοξίαν οὐδ᾽ ἀρετὰν παρέδωκαν ἀνδράσιν· εἰ δ᾽ ἅλις ἔλθοι
Κύπρις, οὐκ ἄλλα θεὸς εὔχαρις οὕτως.

μήποτ᾽, ὦ δέσποιν᾽, ἐπ᾽ ἐμοὶ χρυσέων τόξων ἐφείης
ἱμέρῳ χρίσασ᾽ ἄφυκτον οἰστόν.

Loves having arrived which are more than reasonable give neither good reputation nor virtue to men, but should Kypris come in the right amount, no other god is such a favor. Never, my mistress, let loose upon me from your golden bow an inescapable arrow poisoned with longing.

In the Symposium e3, speaking about the Popular and Heavenly Aphrodite Pausanias says: "ἐπαινεῖν μὲν οὖν δεῖ πάντας θεούς," which Dover calls "a verbal gesture to avert nemesis; he does not in fact find anything to commend in Eros Pandemos." Is the bolded section here a similar desire to avoid an unalloyed criticism of a god?

στέργοι δέ με σωφροσύνα,
δώρημα κάλλιστον θεῶν· μηδέ ποτ᾽ ἀμφιλόγους ὀργὰς ἀκόρεστά τε νείκη
θυμὸν ἐκπλήξασ᾽ ἑτέροις ἐπὶ λέκτροις
προσβάλοι δεινὰ Κύπρις, ἀπτολέμους δ᾽ εὐνὰς σεβίζουσ᾽
ὀξύφρων κρίνοι λέχη γυναικῶν.

May moderation feel fondness for me, the finest gift of the gods. Never let terrible Kypris throw at me argumentative rages and insatiate quarrels having struck my heart with desire for other beds (λέκτροις), reverencing non-strife-filled beds (εὐνὰς) let her [σωφροσύνα not Κύπρις?] most wisely separate the beds (λέχη) of women.

I assume there isn't any difference between λέκτρον, εὐνή, and λέχος here?

***

I have questions about the rest of the choral part too, but I'll save them for now.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

μὴ δ’ οὕτως ἀγαθός περ ἐὼν θεοείκελ’ Ἀχιλλεῦ
κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.

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