What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
daivid, Who’s the subject of ἐλάλει?
πέρι τρίτης καὶ δεκάτης διορθώσεως: should be περὶ (the accent is πέρι only when the preposition follows its noun, which is not often; similarly with ἀπό, ἐπί, διά, etc.); and why no article with τρίτης etc?
Again, best not to look at Markos’s or Joel’s attempts at Greek, which will do your Greek no good at all. Or if you wanted you could try fixing some of Joel's mistakes; that might be a worthwhile exercise, to see how many you can catch. (He's following up on his criticism of you for writing μέρος τοῦ τοῦ Χαρίτωνος βίβλου, with two identical articles next to each other—an infelicity which ceases to exist once you correct the first one to τῆς.)
ὦ φίλε Μᾶρκε, εἰ οἴει ἐκείνην τὴν Δίκην σε ἐπαινεῖν ἂν τοιαῦτα γράφοντα οἷα εἴωθας γράφειν, θαυμαστῶς ὡς ἐξαπατᾷ. τὸ γὰρ εὖ μανθάνειν τὴν ἑλληνικὴν φαίνει περὶ οὐδενὸς ποιούμενος. (I'm not sure you'll understand this, but I write in Greek to humor you.)
πέρι τρίτης καὶ δεκάτης διορθώσεως: should be περὶ (the accent is πέρι only when the preposition follows its noun, which is not often; similarly with ἀπό, ἐπί, διά, etc.); and why no article with τρίτης etc?
Again, best not to look at Markos’s or Joel’s attempts at Greek, which will do your Greek no good at all. Or if you wanted you could try fixing some of Joel's mistakes; that might be a worthwhile exercise, to see how many you can catch. (He's following up on his criticism of you for writing μέρος τοῦ τοῦ Χαρίτωνος βίβλου, with two identical articles next to each other—an infelicity which ceases to exist once you correct the first one to τῆς.)
ὦ φίλε Μᾶρκε, εἰ οἴει ἐκείνην τὴν Δίκην σε ἐπαινεῖν ἂν τοιαῦτα γράφοντα οἷα εἴωθας γράφειν, θαυμαστῶς ὡς ἐξαπατᾷ. τὸ γὰρ εὖ μανθάνειν τὴν ἑλληνικὴν φαίνει περὶ οὐδενὸς ποιούμενος. (I'm not sure you'll understand this, but I write in Greek to humor you.)
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
χάριν φέρει μοι, ὅστις τὰ σφάλματα μου ἐνδείκνυσι.
And in case anyone does want to correct it -- Daivid or others -- here was what I tried to say in English:
That last ἡμᾶς should be ἡμεῖς. As I say above, anyone who wants to point out errors does me a favor.
And in case anyone does want to correct it -- Daivid or others -- here was what I tried to say in English:
I failed of the discovery of the gender of "τῆς βίβλου." But not so Markos, who had corrected Daivid with "τοῦ βιβλίου." And I, not having knowledge of the examples of Amplaos am also thankful to him. However, I request you, friends, to turn your attention to the examples. And of these examples not one is precisely similar to the expression of Daivid. For there are two nouns in these expression which each have "τοῦ." And we should have same were we to write "τοῦ τοῦ δούλου δώρου." But it appears to me, if we search for this sort of example, we do not find it.ἐγὼ μὲν ἔσφηλα τοῦ τῆς βίβλου τὸ γένος εὕρειν. ὁ δὲ Μάρκος οὐ, "τοῦ βιβλίου" ἐξορθώσας Δαιυιδ. ἐγὼ δὲ οὐ γνοὺς τὰ παραδείματα τοῦ Αμπλαου καὶ χάριν ἔχω αὐτῷ. ἀξιῶ μέντοι ὑμῖν, ὦ φίλοι, νοῦν ἔχειν πρὸς ταῦτα τὰ παραδείγματα. τῶν δὲ παραδείγμων τούτων οὔκ ἐστι ἓν ἀκριβῶς ὂν ὅμοιον τῷ λόγῳ τοῦ Δαιυιδ. δύω γάρ ἐστι ὀνόματα ἐν τούτῳ τῷ λόγῳ ὃ ἑκάτερον "τοῦ" ἔχει. ἕξοιμεν ἃν δὲ ταὐτὸν εἰ γράφoιμεν "τοῦ τοῦ δούλου δώρου." δόκει δὲ μοι, εἰ ζητοῦμεν παραδείγμα τοιαῦτα, μὴ ἡμᾶς αὐτὸ εὑρήσεσθαι.
That last ἡμᾶς should be ἡμεῖς. As I say above, anyone who wants to point out errors does me a favor.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
I could venture to point a few things out, though I always feel really bad about this, as I still have no courage to compose Greek myself and publish it here. Maybe some day... But here goes — some remarks mainly to Joel. I'm positive I didn't catch everything noteworthy, but maybe mwh could give the rest?
τὰ σφάλματά μου (enclitic)
I think that εὑρίσκειν gladly takes simply accusatiuus cum infinitiuo, so could it be simply "— — τὸ τῆς βίβλου γένος εὑρεῖν"? Note also that the 2nd aorist active infinitive is perispomenon.
Latin Marcus has first syllable long θέσει καὶ φύσει, so it's Μᾶρκος in Greek. As to "Joel" in Greek, I think Ἰωήλ is better, as that's the Hebrew accent, and we do have also e.g. Ἰσραήλ.
As βύβλος is apparently more original, βίβλος being a little later, analogical form on the model of the assimilated βιβλίον < *βυβλίον, I have for this reason only recently started to prefer βύβλος myself, though βίβλος is emphatically not wrong.
Ὁ δὲ Μᾶρκος οὔ: οὐ takes accent before a punctuation mark (= pause).
παραδεί[γ]ματα — — παραδειγμάτων — — παραδείγμα[τα]
I wonder if the verb ἀξιοῦν, too, could simply take acc. c. inf. If this is so, ἀξιῶ — — ὑμᾶς — — νοῦν ἔχειν. I'm not quite sure.
If we want to Graecise "Daivid", there are a few possibilities, but maybe Δαυίδ could be preferrable here (note again the accent conforming with that in Hebrew).
Δύω is the epic form (δύο in prose), but maybe you have been reading Homer and did this on purpose.
Δοκεῖ has the perispomenon (it's contracted). Could the last clause be thought subordinate (again with acc. c. inf.) for δοκεῖ μοι? If so, ἡμᾶς is indeed correct.
Markos, don't you want to use the Greek question mark when writing Greek?
τὰ σφάλματά μου (enclitic)
I think that εὑρίσκειν gladly takes simply accusatiuus cum infinitiuo, so could it be simply "— — τὸ τῆς βίβλου γένος εὑρεῖν"? Note also that the 2nd aorist active infinitive is perispomenon.
Latin Marcus has first syllable long θέσει καὶ φύσει, so it's Μᾶρκος in Greek. As to "Joel" in Greek, I think Ἰωήλ is better, as that's the Hebrew accent, and we do have also e.g. Ἰσραήλ.
As βύβλος is apparently more original, βίβλος being a little later, analogical form on the model of the assimilated βιβλίον < *βυβλίον, I have for this reason only recently started to prefer βύβλος myself, though βίβλος is emphatically not wrong.
Ὁ δὲ Μᾶρκος οὔ: οὐ takes accent before a punctuation mark (= pause).
παραδεί[γ]ματα — — παραδειγμάτων — — παραδείγμα[τα]
I wonder if the verb ἀξιοῦν, too, could simply take acc. c. inf. If this is so, ἀξιῶ — — ὑμᾶς — — νοῦν ἔχειν. I'm not quite sure.
If we want to Graecise "Daivid", there are a few possibilities, but maybe Δαυίδ could be preferrable here (note again the accent conforming with that in Hebrew).
Δύω is the epic form (δύο in prose), but maybe you have been reading Homer and did this on purpose.
Δοκεῖ has the perispomenon (it's contracted). Could the last clause be thought subordinate (again with acc. c. inf.) for δοκεῖ μοι? If so, ἡμᾶς is indeed correct.
Markos, don't you want to use the Greek question mark when writing Greek?
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
σήμερον μέντοι ἔμαθον τὸν μῦθον Αἰσώπειον, τὸν «Ἀνὴρ μεσοπόλιος καὶ ἑταῖραι.» σὺν δὲ τῇ τοῦ Βεδωερε βοηθείᾳ τὸν μῦθον ἀνέγνων.
πρῶτον μὲν ἔβλεπον ταύτην τὴν εἰκόνα.
ἔπειτα δ' ἀνέγνων τὴν καλὴν τοῦ Βεδωερε παράφρασιν.
μετὰ δὲ τοῦτο, ἀνέγνων πέντε Ἐλληνκικὰς ἐκδόσεις τοῦ μύθου ἐκ τοῦ τοῦ Κάμβρου βιβλίου, τούτ ἐστιν ἐκ τοῦ βιβλίου τοῦ 1925. καλὴ δ' ἡ βύβλος καὶ φίλη ἐμοί.
τὴν δὲ δύναμιν τοῦ «ἐπιβλαβής» ἐν τῷ λεξικῶ τῷ Λ.Σ.Κ εὗρον.
τέλος δ' ἤκουσον τοῦ Ροβέρτο λέγοντος τὸν μῦθον.
https://ia601502.us.archive.org/5/items ... _aesop.mp3
κατέλαβον πάντα διότι πολλάκις ἑλληνιζω μετὰ Ῥοβέρτου. φίλος γάρ ἐστιν καὶ στόμα πρὸς στόμα.
καλῶς οὖν ἔμαθον τὸν μύθον. καὶ χαρὰν εἶχον μόνοις τοῖς μονογλωττοῖς χρώμενος.
τί δ' ὄνομά σου Ἑλληνιστί? ποῦ δ' οἰκεῖς σύγε? τέκνα ἔχεις? εἰπέ μοι, παρακαλῶ.
πρῶτον μὲν ἔβλεπον ταύτην τὴν εἰκόνα.
τὸν τοῦ μύθου μῦθον, χωρὶς Βρεττανικῶν λόγων, εὖ λέγει ἡ εἰκών, κατὰ τὸν Μᾶρκον.
ἔπειτα δ' ἀνέγνων τὴν καλὴν τοῦ Βεδωερε παράφρασιν.
καλοὶ γάρ εἰσι οἱ τοῦ Βεδωερε λόγοι καὶ εὔκοποι τοῦ καταλαβείν, δοκεῖ μοι. χάριν οὖν αὐτῷ οἶδα. τῷ δὲ Θεῷ τῷ ποιήσαντι τὸν Βεδωερε εὐχαριστῶ πολύ.bedwere wrote:Ἡ μὲν πρεσβυτέρα ἐρωμένη ἀποσπᾷ τὰς μελαίνας τοῦ ἀνδρὸς τρίχας, ἡ δὲ νεωτέρα τὰς λευκάς. Τοιγαροῦν ἡ τοῦ ἀνδρὸς κεφαλὴ ψιλὴ γίγνεται.
μετὰ δὲ τοῦτο, ἀνέγνων πέντε Ἐλληνκικὰς ἐκδόσεις τοῦ μύθου ἐκ τοῦ τοῦ Κάμβρου βιβλίου, τούτ ἐστιν ἐκ τοῦ βιβλίου τοῦ 1925. καλὴ δ' ἡ βύβλος καὶ φίλη ἐμοί.
τὴν δὲ δύναμιν τοῦ «ἐπιβλαβής» ἐν τῷ λεξικῶ τῷ Λ.Σ.Κ εὗρον.
τέλος δ' ἤκουσον τοῦ Ροβέρτο λέγοντος τὸν μῦθον.
https://ia601502.us.archive.org/5/items ... _aesop.mp3
κατέλαβον πάντα διότι πολλάκις ἑλληνιζω μετὰ Ῥοβέρτου. φίλος γάρ ἐστιν καὶ στόμα πρὸς στόμα.
καλῶς οὖν ἔμαθον τὸν μύθον. καὶ χαρὰν εἶχον μόνοις τοῖς μονογλωττοῖς χρώμενος.
εὖ λέγεις, φίλε Ἰώηλ. πολλὰ γὰρ ἥμαρτον καὶ ἁμαρτήσῶ. ἐν δὲ τούτῳ οὔ. τῶν δὲ τῶν Ἑλληνιστί γραφόντων πολλάκις ἁμαρτάνων, πρῶτός εἰμι.jeidsath wrote:ἐγὼ μὲν ἔσφηλα τοῦ τῆς βίβλου τὸ γένος εὕρειν. ὁ δὲ Μάρκος οὐ, "τοῦ βιβλίου" ἐξορθώσας Δαιυιδ.
χαίροις, φίλτατε. χαίρω δέ σε ἰδὼν γράφοντα τὴν ἑλληνικὴν γλῶσσαν. πάντα δὲ κατέλαβον. χάριν οὖν σοι οἶδα δή.mwh wrote:ὦ φίλε Μᾶρκε, εἰ οἴει ἐκείνην τὴν Δίκην σε ἐπαινεῖν ἂν τοιαῦτα γράφοντα οἷα εἴωθας γράφειν, θαυμαστῶς ὡς ἐξαπατᾷ. τὸ γὰρ εὖ μανθάνειν τὴν ἑλληνικὴν φαίνει περὶ οὐδενὸς ποιούμενος.
τί δ' ὄνομά σου Ἑλληνιστί? ποῦ δ' οἰκεῖς σύγε? τέκνα ἔχεις? εἰπέ μοι, παρακαλῶ.
πῶς γὰρ οὔ;Timothée wrote:Markos, don't you want to use the Greek question mark when writing Greek?
Last edited by Markos on Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
Τέως μεσημβρία ἀγρυπνῶν νύκτα οὐκ ἐδυνάμην μανθάνειν. τότε ἀνέγνων μέρος τῆς βίβλου τοῦ Χαρίτωνος περὶ ἔρωτος.
ἐλάλουνmwh wrote:daivid, Who’s the subject of ἐλάλει?
χάριν σοι ἔχωmwh wrote: πέρι τρίτης καὶ δεκάτης διορθώσεως: should be περὶ (the accent is πέρι only when the preposition follows its noun, which is not often; similarly with ἀπό, ἐπί, διά, etc.); and why no article with τρίτης etc?
ἀρέσκει μοι μᾶλλον Δειφιδ (Δειφιδος) ἱκετεύω.Timothée wrote: If we want to Graecise "Daivid", there are a few possibilities, but maybe Δαυίδ could be preferrable here (note again the accent conforming with that in Hebrew).
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
Χαρίτων εστι κουφότερος πλὴν οὐκ αὐτὸν ἀναγιγνώσκω ἀκονιτὶ οὔποτε. τήμερον μέντοι ἦν δυσκολώτερος.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
Good. One or two points however, now that you’re getting better:
In Greek you wouldn’t say that an author is easy (ῥᾴδιος) or light (κοῦφος) or hard or whatever, and you wouldn’t ordinarily speak of reading an author. You’d speak of their books or their writings (e.g. τὰ ὑπὸ Ξενοφῶντος γεγραμμένα or τὰ Ξενοφῶντι γεγραμμένα).
Your use of πλήν is not wrong but ἀλλά would be better. You can also start clauses with πλὴν ὅτι “except that.”
ἀκονιτί is a nice word (lit. “undustily,” κόνις dust, ἀ- a negating prefix as in asymptomatic, -ί an old adverbial ending) but an unusual one, and I’m guessing you’ve never seen it before, or not until you looked up ?”without a struggle” in an Eng.-Gk. dictionary. Words that you’ve never actually seen in use you should look up in the Greek lexicon to get a better idea of what they mean and how they’re used.
In Greek you wouldn’t say that an author is easy (ῥᾴδιος) or light (κοῦφος) or hard or whatever, and you wouldn’t ordinarily speak of reading an author. You’d speak of their books or their writings (e.g. τὰ ὑπὸ Ξενοφῶντος γεγραμμένα or τὰ Ξενοφῶντι γεγραμμένα).
Your use of πλήν is not wrong but ἀλλά would be better. You can also start clauses with πλὴν ὅτι “except that.”
ἀκονιτί is a nice word (lit. “undustily,” κόνις dust, ἀ- a negating prefix as in asymptomatic, -ί an old adverbial ending) but an unusual one, and I’m guessing you’ve never seen it before, or not until you looked up ?”without a struggle” in an Eng.-Gk. dictionary. Words that you’ve never actually seen in use you should look up in the Greek lexicon to get a better idea of what they mean and how they’re used.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
ἀσκήσεις ὀλίγας ἐκ τοῦ τῆς Δίκευ βιβλίου ἐτέλεσα.
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
εὖγε Μᾶρκε. οὕτως γὰρ διατελῶν οὐκ ὀλίγον προκόψεις, εὖ οἶδ’ ὅτι. ἀλλ’ ἀσκήσεις ὀλίγας (ὃ μεθερμηνευόμενον ἂν εἴη “only a few”) θέλεις ἤτοι οὐ πολλάς (“a few”); διαφέρουσι γάρ.
(καὶ ἄσκησις : ἄσκημα :: ποίησις : ποίημα)
(καὶ ἄσκησις : ἄσκημα :: ποίησις : ποίημα)
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
Of course we cannot always be exact or strict about names and their parallels in Ancient Greek. What would, for instance, become of Friedrich, Eadward or Ælfræd?
I can only offer my opinion in that where we have nice parallels, I do think it pays to use them, as this is traditional custom. This biblical name is given by Lampe as Δαυίδ, Δαβίδ and Δαυείδ. It will be indeclinable as most Hebrew names (e.g. εἰς πόλιν Δαυίδ).
I can only offer my opinion in that where we have nice parallels, I do think it pays to use them, as this is traditional custom. This biblical name is given by Lampe as Δαυίδ, Δαβίδ and Δαυείδ. It will be indeclinable as most Hebrew names (e.g. εἰς πόλιν Δαυίδ).
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
ἀνέγνων μέρος τῆς ὑπὸ Ρουσος* γεγραμμένης βίβλου.
*Ρουσος=W H D Rouse
εὔκοπος?mwh wrote: In Greek you wouldn’t say that an author is easy (ῥᾴδιος) or light (κοῦφος) or hard or whatever, and you wouldn’t ordinarily speak of reading an author. You’d speak of their books or their writings (e.g. τὰ ὑπὸ Ξενοφῶντος γεγραμμένα or τὰ Ξενοφῶντι γεγραμμένα).
χάριν σοι ἔχω.mwh wrote:Your use of πλήν is not wrong but ἀλλά would be better. You can also start clauses with πλὴν ὅτι “except that.”
I read it in Chariton. One of the jealous suitors used it to describe how Chaereas had won Callirhoe despite not doing anything to gain her (unless you count pining away out of love and the suitors would not count that).mwh wrote:
ἀκονιτί is a nice word (lit. “undustily,” κόνις dust, ἀ- a negating prefix as in asymptomatic, -ί an old adverbial ending) but an unusual one, and I’m guessing you’ve never seen it before, or not until you looked up ?”without a struggle” in an Eng.-Gk. dictionary. Words that you’ve never actually seen in use you should look up in the Greek lexicon to get a better idea of what they mean and how they’re used.
*Ρουσος=W H D Rouse
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
Good—if Ῥουσος is meant to be genitive.
εὔκοπος. Yes you could use that to say e.g. ὁ Χαρίτωνος λόγος εὐκοπώτερος συνἱέναι ἢ ὁ Ξενοφῶντος ("Char’s tale is easier to read/understand than Xen’s"). But I think you’ve picked up vocab from Markos, which tends to be more NT than Attic.
ἀκονιτί. So you had actually encountered it in your reading, and my guess was wrong! Splendid! It fit the situation well.
εὔκοπος. Yes you could use that to say e.g. ὁ Χαρίτωνος λόγος εὐκοπώτερος συνἱέναι ἢ ὁ Ξενοφῶντος ("Char’s tale is easier to read/understand than Xen’s"). But I think you’ve picked up vocab from Markos, which tends to be more NT than Attic.
ἀκονιτί. So you had actually encountered it in your reading, and my guess was wrong! Splendid! It fit the situation well.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
ἐπεὶ φράσεις ἐν τῇ τοῦ Ρουσος βίβλῳ ἔφηναν ὡς αἰνίγματα ἔδοξε μοι ἀναγιγνώσκειν μέρος τῆς ὕπο Ξενοφῶντος γεγραμμένης βίβλου.
But I did forget to change back to the nominative for the footnote.mwh wrote:Good—if Ῥουσος is meant to be genitive.
I actually acquired it from Christophe Rico. I don't aim to write pure Attic but it is good to be aware of what isn't pure Attic. (According to Perseus it is quite a rare word even among later writers.)mwh wrote: εὔκοπος. Yes you could use that to say e.g. ὁ Χαρίτωνος λόγος εὐκοπώτερος συνἱέναι ἢ ὁ Ξενοφῶντος ("Char’s tale is easier to read/understand than Xen’s"). But I think you’ve picked up vocab from Markos, which tends to be more NT than Attic.
χάριν σοι οἴδα .mwh wrote: ἀκονιτί. So you had actually encountered it in your reading, and my guess was wrong! Splendid! It fit the situation well.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
ἔγραψα μέρος τι λόγου κατὰ τὸ τοῦ Δουγλου παράδειγμα λέγοντος ἀντὶ Λινκονος.
Δουγλης =Stephen Douglas, Λινκον= Lincoln.
Δουγλης =Stephen Douglas, Λινκον= Lincoln.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
χρώμενος τῇ ὑπὸ τοῦ Ταιλορος καί τοῦ Ἀνδερσονος γεγραμμένης βίβλου* συνέγραψα φράσεις.
* Writing Greek, Anderson and Taylor
* Writing Greek, Anderson and Taylor
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
χρώμενος τῇ ὑπὸ Ταιλορος γεγραμμένης βίβλῳ ἤσκουν καὶ ἀνέγνων μικρὸν μέρος τῆς ὑπὸ τοῦ Χαρίτωνος γεγραμμένης.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
χρώμενος τῇ ὑπὸ Ταιλορος γεγραμμένης βίβλου ἁμαρτών, ἐξήλειψα καὶ πάλιν ἐπείρασα
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
τῇ … γεγραμμένης βίβλου?!
χρώμενος … ἁμαρτών. Awkward to have two participles like this. Try e.g. ἁμαρτὼν ὅτε ἐχρώμην (impf.)
ἐπείρασα. OK but middle is more common. E.g. “I had a go at writing something correctly” (“I tried to write …”) ἐπειρασάμην ὀρθῶς γράφειν τι. (Or ἐπειράθην, the aor. passive form used in a middle sense. Quite a lot of verbs do this.)
χρώμενος … ἁμαρτών. Awkward to have two participles like this. Try e.g. ἁμαρτὼν ὅτε ἐχρώμην (impf.)
ἐπείρασα. OK but middle is more common. E.g. “I had a go at writing something correctly” (“I tried to write …”) ἐπειρασάμην ὀρθῶς γράφειν τι. (Or ἐπειράθην, the aor. passive form used in a middle sense. Quite a lot of verbs do this.)
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
τήμερον μέρος τις τῆς ὑπὸ Χαρίτωνος γεγραμμένης βίβλου ἐμνημόνευσα.
χάριν σοι οἴδα
βίβλῳmwh wrote:τῇ … γεγραμμένης βίβλου?!
ἐξήλειψα καὶ πάλιν ἐπειρασάμηνmwh wrote: χρώμενος … ἁμαρτών. Awkward to have two participles like this. Try e.g. ἁμαρτὼν ὅτε ἐχρώμην (impf.)
ἐπείρασα. OK but middle is more common. E.g. “I had a go at writing something correctly” (“I tried to write …”) ἐπειρασάμην ὀρθῶς γράφειν τι. (Or ἐπειράθην, the aor. passive form used in a middle sense. Quite a lot of verbs do this.)
χάριν σοι οἴδα
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
μέρος τις Gender of μέρος?
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
I just came across this word in Wilson's Harry Potter, and knew it because of Daivid's use here, and the discussion.ἀκονιτί is a nice word (lit. “undustily,” κόνις dust, ἀ- a negating prefix as in asymptomatic, -ί an old adverbial ending) but an unusual one
"Ἀκονιτὶ γὰρ προὐχώρησεν;"
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
There is also a nice instance of this word in Thucydides, at 4.73.2: ἐπειδή γε ἐν φανερῷ ἔδειξαν ἑτοῖμοι ὄντες ἀμύνεσθαι, καὶ αὐτοῖς ὥσπερ ἀκονιτὶ τὴν νίκην δικαίως ἂν τίθεσθαι - 'since they [Brasidas and his men] had in any case clearly demonstrated that they were ready to defend themselves, so that without, as it were, incurring the dust of combat, the victory could in their view justly be credited to them'.jeidsath wrote:I just came across this word in Wilson's Harry Potter, and knew it because of Daivid's use here, and the discussion.ἀκονιτί is a nice word (lit. “undustily,” κόνις dust, ἀ- a negating prefix as in asymptomatic, -ί an old adverbial ending) but an unusual one
"Ἀκονιτὶ γὰρ προὐχώρησεν;"
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
μόλις οὖν ἔκειτο πλήν*, ἀνέγνων μέρος τι τῆς ὑπὸ Ξενοφῶντος γεγραμμένης βίβλου περὶ Ἑλλάδος.
*Chariton 1.4.2
*Chariton 1.4.2
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
The TLG text is μόλις οὖν ἐκεῖνος πλὴν ὑπηγάγετο τὴν μείρακα …. Does yours have εκειτο? Either way the expression is difficult, not a good model to follow. You should at least have cancelled the ουν, and not put a comma after πλήν.
(With εκεινος the Chariton is literally “So with difficulty he except he seduced the girl,” meaning he found it difficult but he did manage to seduce her. It’s elliptical, and I’d recommend you stick to plainer constructions.)
ὁ TLG ἀποδίδωσι κατὰ λέξιν "μόλις οὖν ἐκεῖνος πλὴν ὑπηγάγετο τὴν μείρακα" κτλ. ἡ δὲ παρὰ σοὶ ἔκδοσις τὸ δὴ "ἔκειτο"; ἀλλ’ οὐ ῥᾳδίως γ’ οὐδ’ ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν ἀκονιτί τις ἂν συνεἵη οὔτε τοῦτο οὔτ’ ἐκεῖνο, οὐδ’ ὡς παράδειγμα ἀποδεκτέον. ἔδει σε τὸ γοῦν "οὖν" διαγράψαι, οὐδὲ μετὰ τὸ "πλήν" τὴν φράσιν διαστεῖλαι.
(With εκεινος the Chariton is literally “So with difficulty he except he seduced the girl,” meaning he found it difficult but he did manage to seduce her. It’s elliptical, and I’d recommend you stick to plainer constructions.)
ὁ TLG ἀποδίδωσι κατὰ λέξιν "μόλις οὖν ἐκεῖνος πλὴν ὑπηγάγετο τὴν μείρακα" κτλ. ἡ δὲ παρὰ σοὶ ἔκδοσις τὸ δὴ "ἔκειτο"; ἀλλ’ οὐ ῥᾳδίως γ’ οὐδ’ ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν ἀκονιτί τις ἂν συνεἵη οὔτε τοῦτο οὔτ’ ἐκεῖνο, οὐδ’ ὡς παράδειγμα ἀποδεκτέον. ἔδει σε τὸ γοῦν "οὖν" διαγράψαι, οὐδὲ μετὰ τὸ "πλήν" τὴν φράσιν διαστεῖλαι.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
Why not simply use μόλις on its own, which is how Thucydides conveys the sense 'with difficulty', or 'it was only with difficulty [that X did Y]' (if that's what you're after here)?
John
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
ἔμαθον χρώμενος τῇ βίβλῳ ὑπὸ Ναλλος γεγραμμένης κατὰ τὴν τοῦ Ρυθερφορδος γεγραμμένης βίβλον.
(Nall wrote a book of exercises which relies on Rutherford's grammar.)
I looked up elliptical and it told me that some word has been dropped. Perhaps ἄνθρωπος after ἐκεῖνος.?
(Nall wrote a book of exercises which relies on Rutherford's grammar.)
Perseus has εκειτο. Cashman Kerr Prince does have ἐκεῖνος but I only checked the commentary which was no help at all. I was going to post a question on that sentence but then convinced myself I did understand it. Clearly I did not understand it but with your explanation and knowing it should be εκεινος it is much clearer.mwh wrote:The TLG text is μόλις οὖν ἐκεῖνος πλὴν ὑπηγάγετο τὴν μείρακα …. Does yours have εκειτο? Either way the expression is difficult, not a good model to follow. You should at least have cancelled the ουν, and not put a comma after πλήν.
(With εκεινος the Chariton is literally “So with difficulty he except he seduced the girl,” meaning he found it difficult but he did manage to seduce her. It’s elliptical, and I’d recommend you stick to plainer constructions.)
ὁ TLG ἀποδίδωσι κατὰ λέξιν "μόλις οὖν ἐκεῖνος πλὴν ὑπηγάγετο τὴν μείρακα" κτλ. ἡ δὲ παρὰ σοὶ ἔκδοσις τὸ δὴ "ἔκειτο"; ἀλλ’ οὐ ῥᾳδίως γ’ οὐδ’ ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν ἀκονιτί τις ἂν συνεἵη οὔτε τοῦτο οὔτ’ ἐκεῖνο, οὐδ’ ὡς παράδειγμα ἀποδεκτέον. ἔδει σε τὸ γοῦν "οὖν" διαγράψαι, οὐδὲ μετὰ τὸ "πλήν" τὴν φράσιν διαστεῖλαι.
I looked up elliptical and it told me that some word has been dropped. Perhaps ἄνθρωπος after ἐκεῖνος.?
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
I called it elliptical because μολις … πλην … υπηγαγετο “with difficulty except he seduced” needs filling out for it to make sense grammatically. Since πλην beings a new clause, μολις is left stranded without a verb. We can understand something like “Only with difficulty [did he seduce her], except/but he did seduce her.”
It’s very good to utilize words and constructions you meet in your reading (as you did with ακονιτί), but in this instance it’s probably best to forget all about such a grammatically anomalous construction—forget the whole thing. As John said, you could have just said μόλις ανέγνων.
Much more important: In today's post you have γεγραμμένης twice—each time in the wrong case. That’s the sort of thing you should be concentrating on—what goes with what. “the book written by X”—“written” has to agree with “the book”, whatever case “the book” is in. To be quite honest I don’t understand why you find this so very difficult, but clearly you do.
It’s very good to utilize words and constructions you meet in your reading (as you did with ακονιτί), but in this instance it’s probably best to forget all about such a grammatically anomalous construction—forget the whole thing. As John said, you could have just said μόλις ανέγνων.
Much more important: In today's post you have γεγραμμένης twice—each time in the wrong case. That’s the sort of thing you should be concentrating on—what goes with what. “the book written by X”—“written” has to agree with “the book”, whatever case “the book” is in. To be quite honest I don’t understand why you find this so very difficult, but clearly you do.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
ἐβάδιζον κατὰ τὴν ὁδοὺς ἀναγινώσκων φράσιν τίνα ὑπὸ Ξενοφῶντος γεγραμμένην.
Really, I need to read something much easier but Chariton is about as easy as it gets as there are so few easy readers.
But I did learn Serbo-Croat because I read a large quantity of children's books and declensions became sufficiently automatic that (mostly) they no longer gave me trouble.
But there are too few easy readers in Ancient Greek
It might have been rash for me to attempt to write that phrase, I do need to understand them if I am to read Chariton. So your explanation has been very helpful.mwh wrote:I called it elliptical because μολις … πλην … υπηγαγετο “with difficulty except he seduced” needs filling out for it to make sense grammatically. Since πλην beings a new clause, μολις is left stranded without a verb. We can understand something like “Only with difficulty [did he seduce her], except/but he did seduce her.”
It’s very good to utilize words and constructions you meet in your reading (as you did with ακονιτί), but in this instance it’s probably best to forget all about such a grammatically anomalous construction—forget the whole thing. As John said, you could have just said μόλις ανέγνων.
Really, I need to read something much easier but Chariton is about as easy as it gets as there are so few easy readers.
Nor could my driving instructor understand why I kept repeating the same mistake despite repeated corrections. Eventually he lost his temper which I take as a sign that I am not typical - driving instructors who shout at their pupils soon run out of customers. The reason was I was concentrating something else and was unable to focus on what he wanted me to focus on as well. Unlike Greek I gave up trying to drive rather quickly - cars kill.mwh wrote:Much more important: In today's post you have γεγραμμένης twice—each time in the wrong case. That’s the sort of thing you should be concentrating on—what goes with what. “the book written by X”—“written” has to agree with “the book”, whatever case “the book” is in. To be quite honest I don’t understand why you find this so very difficult, but clearly you do.
But I did learn Serbo-Croat because I read a large quantity of children's books and declensions became sufficiently automatic that (mostly) they no longer gave me trouble.
But there are too few easy readers in Ancient Greek
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
What were you concentrating on when you wrote τὴν ὁδοὺς? Can you correct it?
And can you correct each γεγραμμένης in ἔμαθον χρώμενος τῇ βίβλῳ ὑπὸ Ναλλος γεγραμμένης κατὰ τὴν τοῦ Ρυθερφορδος γεγραμμένης βίβλον?
If not, I may just have to join your driving instructor.
And can you correct each γεγραμμένης in ἔμαθον χρώμενος τῇ βίβλῳ ὑπὸ Ναλλος γεγραμμένης κατὰ τὴν τοῦ Ρυθερφορδος γεγραμμένης βίβλον?
If not, I may just have to join your driving instructor.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
ἀναγιγνώσκων τὴν ὑπὸ Παυσανίου γεγραμμένην ἔμαθον διότι Πύρρος ἐπέθηκεν Κόρκυραν.
ἔμαθον χρώμενος τῇ βίβλῳ ὑπὸ Ναλλος γεγραμμένῃ κατὰ τὴν τοῦ Ρυθερφορδος γεγραμμένην βίβλον.mwh wrote:What were you concentrating on when you wrote τὴν ὁδοὺς? Can you correct it?
And can you correct each γεγραμμένης in ἔμαθον χρώμενος τῇ βίβλῳ ὑπὸ Ναλλος γεγραμμένης κατὰ τὴν τοῦ Ρυθερφορδος γεγραμμένης βίβλον?
If not, I may just have to join your driving instructor.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
ἐμελέτων χρώμενος τε μέρος τῆς ὑπὸ Ναλλος γεγραμμένης βιβλου και ὄμορον μερος τι τῆς ὑπὸ Ρυσσελλος γεγραμμένης βίβλου.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
τε is postpositive: should go after μερος.
And μέρος is in the wrong case: χρώμενος doesn’t take accusative but …?
Ι'm not quite sure what you mean by ὄμορον.
And μέρος is in the wrong case: χρώμενος doesn’t take accusative but …?
Ι'm not quite sure what you mean by ὄμορον.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
Daivid - in addition to the specific points made by Michael, may I offer one suggestion?
This is the third occasion in a relatively short space of time that the case to be used with χρώμενος has caused you problems. Is there perhaps a case (no pun intended) for you to make a note of such things, and to check each of your sentences against it before posting?
Apart from such specifics, I'd suggest that, before hitting the 'submit' button, you double check to ensure that (a) verbs are in the right person, and (b) relevant words (e.g. definite articles and participles) are in agreement.
Hopefully in time the need for such formal procedures will diminish, and things will become more 'second nature' to you.
Just a suggestion, to help you deal with some important recurring issues ...
John
This is the third occasion in a relatively short space of time that the case to be used with χρώμενος has caused you problems. Is there perhaps a case (no pun intended) for you to make a note of such things, and to check each of your sentences against it before posting?
Apart from such specifics, I'd suggest that, before hitting the 'submit' button, you double check to ensure that (a) verbs are in the right person, and (b) relevant words (e.g. definite articles and participles) are in agreement.
Hopefully in time the need for such formal procedures will diminish, and things will become more 'second nature' to you.
Just a suggestion, to help you deal with some important recurring issues ...
John
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
χρώμενος τῇ ὑπὸ Ξενοφῶντος γεγραμμένῃ βίβλῳ ἔμαθον ποῦ τιθέναι τὸν λόγον «τε».
χάριν σοι οἴδα
μέρειmwh wrote:τε is postpositive: should go after μερος.
And μέρος is in the wrong case: χρώμενος doesn’t take accusative but …?
χάριν σοι οἴδα
The dictionary said ὅμορος means "adjacent, closely resembling,". Now I come to think of it, I probably read it in Strabo who would have used it in the sense of adjacent. What I wanted was similar in the sense of covering the same grammatical area. παραπλήσιος perhaps?mwh wrote: Ι'm not quite sure what you mean by ὄμορον.
Usually I think I have. I will try making a list of problem areas. It may become too long to be workable but it's worth a try. Thanks for the suggestion.John W. wrote: This is the third occasion in a relatively short space of time that the case to be used with χρώμενος has caused you problems. Is there perhaps a case (no pun intended) for you to make a note of such things, and to check each of your sentences against it before posting?
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
“ἔμαθον ποῦ τιθέναι τὸν λόγον «τε».” An important point of syntax here. The ποῦ (or ὅπου, you can use either) introduces an indirect question, so it needs a finite verb (not an infinitive as in English “where to put it").
You could (1) simply add δεῖ in front of τιθέναι (“where one should place τε”), or δεῖ με “where I should …”);
or you could (2) use a verbal adjective, ποῦ θετέον (εστι) τὸ τε (“where τε is to be placed”);
or you could (3) use a deliberative subjunctive, ποῦ τιθῶ τὸ τε (“where I am to place τε”), as in Archimedes’ δός μοι ποῦ στῶ … (“Give me where I am to stand …” i.e. “Give me a place to stand”).
What you can’t do is use an infinitive. That’s ungrammatical.
A very minor vocab point: Greek for “the word” in this context is ἡ λέξις. Or you can just use τό, as I’ve done above, which has the effect of putting what follows in quotes (the Greeks didn’t have quote-marks). τὸ τε = “τε”.
ὅμορος is ὁμ(ο)-ὅρος (ὅρος a boundary, border), so means having a common border, like England and Scotland. Cf. e.g. ὅμαιμος, i.e. ὅμ(ο)-αἱμος (αἷμα blood), of a blood relation, or ὁμόφωνος (φωνή voice), speaking the same language.
παραπλήσιος is a good suggestion: και παραπλήσιόν τι μέρος “and a corresponding section”—or rather, since it's dependent on χρώμενος, παραπλησίῳ μέρει τινι.
If you ever again use χρώμενος with any case other than dative, I’ll seek you out and scream at you. Incentive enough?
You could (1) simply add δεῖ in front of τιθέναι (“where one should place τε”), or δεῖ με “where I should …”);
or you could (2) use a verbal adjective, ποῦ θετέον (εστι) τὸ τε (“where τε is to be placed”);
or you could (3) use a deliberative subjunctive, ποῦ τιθῶ τὸ τε (“where I am to place τε”), as in Archimedes’ δός μοι ποῦ στῶ … (“Give me where I am to stand …” i.e. “Give me a place to stand”).
What you can’t do is use an infinitive. That’s ungrammatical.
A very minor vocab point: Greek for “the word” in this context is ἡ λέξις. Or you can just use τό, as I’ve done above, which has the effect of putting what follows in quotes (the Greeks didn’t have quote-marks). τὸ τε = “τε”.
ὅμορος is ὁμ(ο)-ὅρος (ὅρος a boundary, border), so means having a common border, like England and Scotland. Cf. e.g. ὅμαιμος, i.e. ὅμ(ο)-αἱμος (αἷμα blood), of a blood relation, or ὁμόφωνος (φωνή voice), speaking the same language.
παραπλήσιος is a good suggestion: και παραπλήσιόν τι μέρος “and a corresponding section”—or rather, since it's dependent on χρώμενος, παραπλησίῳ μέρει τινι.
If you ever again use χρώμενος with any case other than dative, I’ll seek you out and scream at you. Incentive enough?
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
Archimedes' famous dictum was discussed at some length here, though the syntax of ποῦ was not (explicitly) opened like mwh just above.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
χρώμενος τῇ ὑπὸ Ρυσσελλος γεγραμμένῃ βίβλῳ ἐμελέτων φράσεις σὺν τῷ «ὁτί».
χάριν σοι οἴδα βελτίστης βουλῆς ἕνεκα
χάριν σοι οἴδα βελτίστης βουλῆς ἕνεκα
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
ὁτί ἢ ὅτι;
A more subtle point: it’s not clear from the Greek that σὺν τῷ ὅτι goes with φράσεις rather than with ἐμελέτων. I presume you don’t mean to say that along with ὅτι you practiced sentences. You could say you practiced φράσεις αἳ ἔχουσι τὸ ὅτι, or φράσεις τὸ ὅτι ἐχούσας.
A more subtle point: it’s not clear from the Greek that σὺν τῷ ὅτι goes with φράσεις rather than with ἐμελέτων. I presume you don’t mean to say that along with ὅτι you practiced sentences. You could say you practiced φράσεις αἳ ἔχουσι τὸ ὅτι, or φράσεις τὸ ὅτι ἐχούσας.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
ἔγραψα ἱστορίαν περὶ πολεμοῦ Ἀθηνῶν ἀντὶ Σπάρτας.
ὅτιmwh wrote:ὁτί ἢ ὅτι;
χάριν σοι ὄιδαmwh wrote: A more subtle point: it’s not clear from the Greek that σὺν τῷ ὅτι goes with φράσεις rather than with ἐμελέτων. I presume you don’t mean to say that along with ὅτι you practiced sentences. You could say you practiced φράσεις αἳ ἔχουσι τὸ ὅτι, or φράσεις τὸ ὅτι ἐχούσας.
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Re: What I did studying Greek today (in Greek)
“ἔγραψα ἱστορίαν περὶ πολεμοῦ Ἀθηνῶν ἀντὶ Σπάρτας.”
Cities don’t have wars. You mean the Athenians and the Lacedaemonians.
ἀντί as a preposition means “instead of.” For “against” you could use ἐπί with dative, or επί with accusative if they sent armed forces against them (since the accusative implies movement towards, as with πρός and εἰς).
πολέμου (note accent) “a war.” Article needed if you mean “the” war.
Do we get to see this story?
ὄιδα wrong accent.
Cities don’t have wars. You mean the Athenians and the Lacedaemonians.
ἀντί as a preposition means “instead of.” For “against” you could use ἐπί with dative, or επί with accusative if they sent armed forces against them (since the accusative implies movement towards, as with πρός and εἰς).
πολέμου (note accent) “a war.” Article needed if you mean “the” war.
Do we get to see this story?
ὄιδα wrong accent.