First 100 lines of the Iliad

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First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by jeidsath » Mon Jan 25, 2016 6:18 am

Below is a marked text of the first 100 lines of the Iliad. There are some very minor errors that I am still working out (noted below). Along with the text is a recording, which is also a bit of a rough draft.

Line 57: ἐφῑεὶϲ should have a lower macron to indicate an extended short, not an upper macron. This is already fixed in the latest version. (Yes, I know what Autenrieth says, and will explain more fully if anyone asks.)

Line 97: There should be an undertie beneath the first two characters of πρὶν to indicate that they are pronounced as one consonant. This is a problem with Textkit / or the Chrome browser. It looks fine in my text editor.

I haven't gone through and policed -α and -ας before double consonants and line end yet, as vowel length for that will have to be done manually.

This is only a sample. I have a similar text of the entire Iliad / Odyssey. If you notice any errors, or have suggestions, they would be appreciated. Also, I may be in a position to give some detailed statistical information about any particular question of Homeric meter that you might have.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvcgyWXoDUI

A1 μῆνιν ἄειδε θεᾱ̀ Πηληϊάδε̥ω Ἀχιλῆοϲ
A2 οὐλομένην ἣ μῡρί Ἀχαιοῖϲ ἄλγε ἔθηκε
A3 πολλᾱ̀ϲ δ’ ἰφθῑ́μουϲ ψῡχᾱ̀ϲ Ἄϊδι προΐαψεν
A4 ἡρώων αὐτοὺϲ δὲ ἑλώρια τεῦχε κύνεϲϲιν
A5 οἰωνοῖϲί τε πᾶϲι Διὸϲ δ’ ἐτελείετο βουλή
A6 ἐξ οὗ δὴ τὰ πρῶτα διαϲτήτην ἐρίϲαντε
A7 Ἀτρεΐδηϲ τε ἄναξ ἀνδρῶν καὶ δῖοϲ Ἀχιλλεύϲ
A8 τίϲ τ’ ἄρ ϲφωε θεῶν ἔριδι ξυνέηκε μάχεϲθαι
A9 Λητοῦϲ καὶ Διὸϲ υἱόϲ ὃ γὰρ βαϲιλῆϊ χολωθεὶϲ
A10 νοῦϲον ἀνὰ ϲτρατὸν ὄρϲε κακήν ὀλέκοντο δὲ λᾱοί
A11 οὕνεκα τὸν Χρῡ́ϲην ἠτῑ́μαϲεν ᾱ̓ρητῆρα
A12 Ἀτρεΐδηϲ ὃ γὰρ ἦλθε θοᾱ̀ϲ ἐπὶ νῆαϲ Ἀχαιῶν
A13 λῡϲόμενόϲ τε θύγατρα φέρων τ’ ἀπερείϲι ἄποινα
A14 ϲτέμματ’ ἔχων ἐν χερϲὶν ἑκηβόλου‿Ἀ̱πόλλωνοϲ
A15 χρῡϲέ̥ῳ‿ἀνὰ ϲκήπτρῳ καὶ λίϲϲετο πάνταϲ Ἀχαιούϲ
A16 Ἀτρεΐδᾱ δὲ μάλιϲτα δύω κοϲμήτορε λᾱῶν
A17 Ἀτρεΐδαι τε καὶ‿ἄλλοι‿ἐϋκνήμῑδεϲ Ἀχαιοί
A18 ῡ̔μῖν μὲν θε̥οὶ δοῖεν Ὀλύμπια δώματ’ ἔχοντεϲ
A19 ἐκπέρϲαι Πριάμοιο πόλι̱ν εὖ δ’ οἴκαδ’ ἱκέϲθαι
A20 παῖδα δ’ ἐμοὶ λῡ́ϲαιτε φίλην τὰ δ’ ἄποινα δέχεϲθαι
A21 ἁζόμενοι Διὸϲ υἱὸν ἑκηβόλον Ἀ̱πόλλωνα
A22 ἔνθ’ ἄλλοι μὲν πάντεϲ ἐπευφήμηϲαν Ἀχαιοὶ
A23 αἰδεῖϲθαί θ’ ἱερῆα καὶ‿ἀγλαὰ δέχθαι‿ἄποινα
A24 ἀλλ’ οὐκ Ἀτρεΐδῃ Ἀγαμέμνονι ἥνδανε θῡμῷ
A25 ἀλλὰ κακῶϲ ἀφίει κρατερὸν δ’ ἐπὶ μῦθον ἔτελλε
A26 μή ϲε γέρον κοίλῃϲιν ἐγὼ παρὰ νηυϲὶ κιχείω
A27 ἢ νῦν δηθῡ́νοντ’ ἢ ὕϲτερον αὖτιϲ ἰόντα
A28 μή νύ τοι‿οὐ χραίϲμῃ ϲκῆπτρον καὶ ϲτέμμα θεοῖο
A29 τὴν δ’ ἐγὼ‿οὐ λῡ́ϲω πρίν μιν καὶ γῆραϲ ἔπειϲιν
A30 ἡμετέρῳ ἐνὶ οἴκῳ‿ἐν Ἄργεϊ τηλόθι πάτρηϲ
A31 ἱϲτὸν ἐποιχομένην καὶ‿ἐμὸν λέχοϲ ἀντιόωϲαν
A32 ἀλλ’ ἴθι μή μ’ ἐρέθιζε ϲαώτεροϲ ὥϲ κε νέηαι
A33 ὣϲ ἔφατ’ ἔ̱δειϲεν δ’ ὃ γέρων καὶ‿ἐπείθετο μῡ́θῳ
A34 βῆ δ’ ἀκέων παρὰ θῖνα πολυφλοίϲβοιο θαλάϲϲηϲ
A35 πολλὰ δ’ ἔπειτ’ ἀπάνευθε κιὼν ἠρᾶθ’ ὃ γεραιὸϲ
A36 Ἀ̱πόλλωνι ἄνακτι τὸν ἠΰκομοϲ τέκε Λητώ
A37 κλῦθί μευ‿ἀργυρότοξ’ ὃϲ Χρῡ́ϲην ἀμφιβέβηκαϲ
A38 Κίλλᾱ́ν τε ζαθέην Τενέδοιό τε ἶφι ἀνάϲϲειϲ
A39 Ϲμινθεῦ εἴ ποτέ τοι χαρίεντ’ ἐπὶ νηὸν ἔρεψα
A40 ἢ εἰ δή ποτέ τοι κατὰ πῑ́ονα μηρί ἔκηα
A41 ταύρων ἠδ’ αἰγῶν τὸ δέ μοι κρήηνον ἐέλδωρ
A42 τῑ́ϲειαν Δαναοὶ ἐμὰ δάκρυα ϲοῖϲι βέλεϲϲιν
A43 ὣϲ ἔφατ’ εὐχόμενοϲ τοῦ δ’ ἔκλυε Φοῖβοϲ Ἀπόλλων
A44 βῆ δὲ κατ’ Οὐλύμποιο καρήνων χωόμενοϲ κῆρ
A45 τόξ’ ὤμοιϲιν ἔχων ἀμφηρεφέᾱ τε φαρέτρην
A46 ἔκλαγξαν δ’ ἄρ’ ὀϊϲτοὶ‿ἐπ’ ὤμων χωομένοιο
A47 αὐτοῦ κῑνηθέντοϲ ὃ δ’ ἤϊε νυκτὶ ἐοικώϲ
A48 ἕζετ’ ἔπειτ’ ἀπάνευθε νεῶν μετὰ δ’ ῑ̓ὸν ἕηκε
A49 δεινὴ δὲ κλαγγὴ γένετ’ ἀργυρέοιο βιοῖο
A50 οὐρῆαϲ μὲν πρῶτον ἐπῴχετο καὶ κύναϲ ἀργούϲ
A51 αὐτὰρ ἔπειτ’ αὐτοῖϲι βέλο̱ϲ ἐχεπευκὲϲ ἐφῑεὶϲ
A52 βάλλ’ αἰεὶ δὲ πυραὶ νεκύων καίοντο θαμειαί
A53 ἐννῆμαρ μὲν ἀνὰ ϲτρατὸν ᾤχετο κῆλα θεοῖο
A54 τῇ δεκάτῃ δ’ ἀγορὴν δὲ καλέϲϲατο λᾱὸν Ἀχιλλεύϲ
A55 τῷ γὰρ ἐπὶ φρεϲὶ θῆκε θεᾱ̀ λευκώλενοϲ Ἥρη
A56 κήδετο γὰρ Δαναῶν ὅτι ῥα θνήϲκονταϲ ὁρᾶτο
A57 οἳ δ’ ἐπεὶ‿οὖν ἤγερθεν ὁμηγερέεϲ τε γένοντο
A58 τοῖϲι δ’ ἀνιϲτάμενοϲ μετέφη πόδαϲ ὠκὺϲ Ἀχιλλεύϲ
A59 Ἀτρεΐδη νῦν ἄμμε παλιμπλαγχθένταϲ ὀῑ́ω
A60 ἂψ ἀπονοϲτήϲειν εἴ κεν θάνατόν γε φύγοιμεν
A61 εἰ δὴ‿ὁμοῦ πόλεμόϲ τε δαμᾷ καὶ λοιμὸϲ Ἀχαιούϲ
A62 ἀλλ’ ἄγε δή τινα μάντιν ἐρείομεν ἢ ἱερῆα
A63 ἢ καὶ‿ὀνειροπόλον καὶ γάρ τ’ ὄναρ ἐκ Διόϲ ἐϲτιν
A64 ὅϲ κ’ εἴποι ὅ τι τόϲϲον ἐχώϲατο Φοῖβοϲ Ἀπόλλων
A65 εἴτ’ ἄρ’ ὅ γ’ εὐχωλῆϲ ἐπιμέμφεται‿ἠδ’ ἑκατόμβηϲ
A66 αἴ κέν πωϲ ἀρνῶν κνῑ́ϲηϲ αἰγῶν τε τελείων
A67 βούλεται‿ἀντιάϲᾱϲ ἡμῖν ἀπὸ λοιγὸν ἀμῦναι
A68 ἤτοι‿ὅ γ’ ὣϲ εἰπὼν κατ’ ἄρ’ ἕζετο τοῖϲι δ’ ἀνέϲτη
A69 Κάλχᾱϲ Θεϲτορίδηϲ οἰωνοπόλων ὄχ’ ἄριϲτοϲ
A70 ὃ̱ϲ ᾔδη τά τ’ ἐόντα τά τ’ ἐϲϲόμενα πρό τ’ ἐόντα
A71 καὶ νήεϲϲ’ ἡγήϲατ’ Ἀχαιῶν Ἴ̄λιον εἴϲω
A72 ἣν διὰ μαντοϲύνην τήν οἱ πόρε Φοῖβοϲ Ἀπόλλων
A73 ὅ ϲφι̱ν ἐὺ φρονέων ἀγορήϲατο καὶ μετέειπεν
A74 ὦ Ἀχιλεῦ κέλεαί με Διῑ̀ φίλε μῡθήϲαϲθαι
A75 μῆνιν Ἀπόλλωνο̱ϲ ἑκατηβελέτᾱο ἄνακτοϲ
A76 τοὶ γὰρ ἐγὼν ἐρέω ϲὺ δὲ ϲύνθεο καί μοι‿ὄμοϲϲον
A77 ἦ μέν μοι πρόφρων ἔπεϲιν καὶ χερϲὶν ἀρήξειν
A78 ἦ γὰρ ὀῑ́ομαι‿ἄνδρα χολωϲέμεν ὃϲ μέγα πάντων
A79 Ἀργείων κρατέει καί οἱ πείθονται‿Ἀχαιοί
A80 κρείϲϲων γὰρ βαϲιλεὺϲ ὅτε χώϲεται‿ἀνδρὶ χέρηϊ
A81 εἴ περ γάρ τε χόλον γε καὶ‿αὐτῆμαρ καταπέψῃ
A82 ἀλλά τε καὶ μετόπιϲθεν ἔχει κότον ὄφρα τελέϲϲῃ
A83 ἐν ϲτήθεϲϲιν ἑοῖϲι ϲὺ δὲ φράϲαι‿εἴ με ϲαώϲειϲ
A84 τὸν δ’ ἀπαμειβόμενοϲ προϲέφη πόδαϲ ὠκὺϲ Ἀχιλλεύϲ
A85 θαρϲήϲᾱϲ μάλα εἰπὲ θεοπρόπιο̱ν ὅ τι οἶϲθα
A86 οὐ μὰ γὰρ Ἀ̱πόλλωνα Διῑ̀ φίλον ᾧ τε ϲὺ Κάλχᾱν
A87 εὐχόμενοϲ Δαναοῖϲι θεοπροπίᾱϲ ἀναφαίνειϲ
A88 οὔ τιϲ ἐμεῦ ζῶντοϲ καὶ‿ἐπὶ χθονὶ δερκομένοιο
A89 ϲοὶ κοίλῃϲ παρὰ νηυϲί βαρείᾱϲ χεῖραϲ ἐποίϲει
A90 ϲυμπάντων Δαναῶν οὐδ’ ἢν Ἀγαμέμνονα εἴπῃϲ
A91 ὃϲ νῦν πολλὸν ἄριϲτοϲ Ἀχαιῶν εὔχεται‿εἶναι
A92 καὶ τότε δὴ θάρϲηϲε καὶ‿ηὔδᾱ μάντιϲ ἀμῡ́μων
A93 οὔ τ’ ἄρ ὅ γ’ εὐχωλῆϲ ἐπιμέμφεται‿οὐδ’ ἑκατόμβηϲ
A94 ἀλλ’ ἕνεκ’ ᾱ̓ρητῆροϲ ὃν ἠτῑ́μηϲ’ Ἀγαμέμνων
A95 οὐδ’ ἀπέλῡϲε θύγατρα καὶ‿οὐκ ἀπεδέξατ’ ἄποινα
A96 τοὔνεκ’ ἄρ’ ἄλγε ἔδωκεν ἑκηβόλοϲ ἠδ’ ἔτι δώϲει
A97 οὐδ’ ὅ γε π͜ρὶν Δαναοῖϲιν ἀεικέα λοιγὸν ἀπώϲει
A98 πρίν γ’ ἀπὸ πατρὶ φίλῳ δόμεναι ἑλικώπιδα κούρην
A99 ἀπριάτην ἀνάποινον ἄγειν θ’ ἱερὴν ἑκατόμβην
A100 ἐϲ Χρῡ́ϲην τότε κέν μιν ἱλαϲϲάμενοι πεπίθοιμεν
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by jeidsath » Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:41 pm

A short quiz with some examples of the sorts of lines that make the above useful.
Question
Read through the following line at your normal speed:
A113 οἴκοι ἔχειν καὶ γάρ ῥα Κλυταιμνήστρης προβέβουλα

Answer
Now the marked version:
Image
Did you use correption (transforming the long vowel/diphthong to a glide) between οἴκοι and ἔχειν to shorten the final vowel of οἴκοι? Did you pronounce Κλ as a single consonant?
Question
Read through the following line at your normal speed:
A119 Ἀργείων ἀγέραστος ἔω ἐπεὶ οὐδὲ ἔοικε

Answer
And the marked version:
Image
Did you pronounce hiatus for ἔω ἐπεί, correption for ἐπεὶ οὐδέ and hiatus again for οὐδὲ ἔοικε?
My guess is that many classicists and 100% of students will either A) parse the unmarked versions of the above lines incorrectly or B) read far too slowly to experience the flow of the Iliad. [Or "C) Both."]

For an example of a classicist getting the meter incorrect, here is Nagy demonstrating some special metrical features of the Iliad:

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~classics/po ... rical.html
A15 χρυσέῳ ἀνὰ σκήπτρῳ καὶ λίσσετο πάντας Ἀχαιούς

Nagy gets the synizesis correct, but misses the correption, pronouncing the line:
[L L S L L L L L S S L S S L L] (he adds an extra beat). It's especially noticeable because he gives the final diphthong of χρυσεωι the same length as σκηπτρωι.

With correption and synizesis marked, it becomes:
Image
[L S S L L L L L S S L S S L L]

So the juncture χρυσεωι ανα is properly pronounced something like -owana-.
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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by Paul Derouda » Thu Jan 28, 2016 7:21 pm

jeidsath wrote:Nagy gets the synizesis correct, but misses the correption, pronouncing the line:
[L L S L L L L L S S L S S L L] (he adds an extra beat). It's especially noticeable because he gives the final diphthong of χρυσεωι the same length as σκηπτρωι.

With correption and synizesis marked, it becomes:

[L S S L L L L L S S L S S L L]

So the juncture χρυσεωι ανα is properly pronounced something like -owana-.
Yes, he pronounces the ω long in χρυσεωι, i.e. misses the correption – a pretty good catch, in my opinion, seeing that your own native language doesn't this sort of vowel length distinction. Otherwise, I find Nagy's pronunciation very good. But is he actually a native speaker of English?

On the other hand, I disagree on -owana-. Shouldn't it be -yoyana- (or -jojana, if you prefer it written that way)?

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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by Hylander » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:03 pm

But is he actually a native speaker of English?
His first language is Hungarian--a language like Finnish with distinctive vowel quantity--but he has native speaker competence in English with virtually no trace of an accent.

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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by Paul Derouda » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:19 pm

I thought so. Hungarian and Finnish are supposed to be related (or not just supposed – they are), but they are mutually totally incomprehensible, even less than, say, English and Russian. But to my knowledge nowadays many Hungarian nationalist wackos deny the connection, as they'd prefer a more glorious ancestry. In any case, I believe phonetically the languages are still quite similar.

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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by jeidsath » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:49 pm

Well, I have been listening to the Olga Poppius videos that you sent me, Paul. I hope that it shows. Also: 'Elävä kala ui veden alla." Supposedly it will be the only sentence that Finns, Hungarians, and Estonians will be able to mutually understand in the future Uralic empire.

I am wrong and you are correct that -oyana is preferable to -owana. But I don't know about the first glide. The first line of the Iliad is a counterexample for adding glide for cases of hyphaeresis/synizesis. Using -dyo- at the end of Πηληιαδεω creates a double consonant.
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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by Hylander » Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:43 am

I don't see anything wrong with Greg's reading of Il. 1.15 here:

https://soundcloud.com/harvardclassics

This sounds right to me. He gets the rhythm of the hexameter right, and he gets you to feel the caesuras and the way the verse is articulated into cola. It's not really a question of how long he prolongs εωι--it's a matter of how it fits into the rhythm of the hexameter.

I don't seem to be able to listen to the link Joel posted, however.

Yes, when he speaks English, he has the very slightest Hungarian accent. He doesn't aspirate initial p, t, k.

But Joel, with a little practice, you should be able to read Homer fluently, not losing the flow, and getting nearly all the synezeses and correptions at sight. Once you get up to speed--and you understand what you're reading--you can get the meter right without even noticing synezeses and correptions. I think most classicists can do this at sight, either reading aloud or hearing the words in their heads as they read silently. It's a matter of getting a feeling for the rhythm and reading words in groups, not word by word--and getting a feeling for the articulation of the verse by the caesura, and beyond that, into three or four cola. Not trying to scan as you read, but reading the hexameter rhythmically and naturally.

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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by mwh » Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:33 am

Joel, I appreciate the work you’ve put into this, and some might find your marked-up version helpful. But I have to tell you that any classicist worthy of the name would be able to read these lines without difficulty, and would find your mark-up more distracting than useful. What your annotation fails to do is elucidate the phenomena, and it positively conceals the structural dynamics. There’s more to understanding how the hexameter works than being able to scan it.

Your faulting of Nagy, while you’re right he doesn’t really shorten the triphthong to the length of an ordinary short syllable, seems to me petty. He knows how to scan! and the meter comes through just fine. He’s illustrating synizesis.

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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by jeidsath » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:07 am

@Hylander -- that is the same audio. Thank you for finding it. I had to install extra software to make Safari play it on the page that I linked.

@mwh -- Nagy reads very well. His quantities are nearly perfect. An example of a classicist who gets the quantities wrong throughout would be someone like Stanley Lombardo. Stephen Daitz is another that gets many quantities wrong. A bigger problem for Daitz, perhaps, is that his long vowels are so over-extended that it destroys the meter. Still, notice that he used a hand-marked text.

As I said, Nagy reads extremely well, with only a few quantity errors in the longer passages (often missed correption), that I would indeed be petty to point out. However, if you get the chance, you should ask Nagy if he hand-marked any of his text before recording.

Also, this is my fluency at Homeric meter after a few days of practicing with a marked text, and I don't think it's a coincidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faDonQ6IQrA

Now I am interested in what structural dynamics are being concealed in my reading. Caesuras are a dark and unexplored country to me, I'm afraid.
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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by Hylander » Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:22 pm

Joel, I haven't listened to the other on-line recordings you've mentioned, but I suspect that the faults you find--extending long syllables too long, missing correptions or long syllables--aren't really mistakes. It's not really a matter of absolute, precise physical length or duration of syllables, but rather of articulating words and groups of words in the rhythm and internal dynamics (as mwh puts it so felicitously) of the hexameter. Judging from your own reading--and with all due respect for your efforts--I think you may be focusing too much on the physical duration of individual syllables rather than the way the words are articulated in the line.

Bill

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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by Paul Derouda » Fri Jan 29, 2016 4:05 pm

No matter how many times I listen, ω is long in χρυσεωι. But what's interesting is that the line still scans. It shows that short/long is far from a binary distinction. The line must be read as a whole, as Hylander and mwh are saying. However, I agree with Joel that Lombardo and Daitz often get the quantities wrong; their hexameters perhaps scan, but their short/long vowel phoneme distinctions are often either not respected or sound unnatural and therefore probably would have sounded totally wrong in native ears. Nagy is entirely different: his short/long vowel distinction is totally natural (as expected, given his linguistic background), and it's surprising how he manages to make a long vowel scan short. Interesting, interesting indeed.

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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by jeidsath » Fri Jan 29, 2016 6:18 pm

--Paul, I think that it scans for Nagy because he also reads the σκ as a single consonant. Listening more carefully, he actually does this to the line:

A15 χρυσέῳ ἀνὰ σκήπτρῳ καὶ λίσσετο πάντας Ἀχαιούς
L L S S L L L L S S L S S L L

That's very close to a real hexameter. It feels a little turgid in the center, but maybe an audience wouldn't have noticed. If a Homeric bard really would have spoken it, though, then Homeric textual scholarship needs to start again from zero. Just about any unmetrical line in the manuscript tradition can be fixed to be "almost-Homer." Most of the mistakes that I hear in Nagy (as opposed to Lombardo or Daitz) are of this sort.

If we are all okay with scanning being fixing mistakes to almost-Homer later in the line, then we should at least be up front about that. I have no doubt that as soon as Homer passed from something that was taught orally, becoming something that was learned from a text, you had this sort of scanning appear.

--Bill, I think that I understand what you're saying. Here is a lifeless "just the meter" reading of a Houseman poem in English, and then I read it again carefully at the same pace and volume, but with more life, though not trying to be expressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eegAnzD3DBk

I would call the difference "prosody" -- perhaps the incorrect term. Regardless, it is indeed going to be the work of years for me to be half as good at the prosody of reading Greek as Nagy is.

I do try to cover about 50 or more lines of the Iliad a day (re-reading them until I have the sense). But reading aloud with prosody or proper expression it's currently beyond my skills, even in sections of the Iliad that I understand well enough, as the above.
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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by Paul Derouda » Fri Jan 29, 2016 7:15 pm

jeidsath wrote:--Paul, I think that it scans for Nagy because he also reads the σκ as a single consonant. Listening more carefully, he actually does this to the line:

A15 χρυσέῳ ἀνὰ σκήπτρῳ καὶ λίσσετο πάντας Ἀχαιούς
L L S S L L L L S S L S S L L

That's very close to a real hexameter. It feels a little turgid in the center, but maybe an audience wouldn't have noticed. If a Homeric bard really would have spoken it, though, then Homeric textual scholarship needs to start again from zero. Just about any unmetrical line in the manuscript tradition can be fixed to be "almost-Homer." Most of the mistakes that I hear in Nagy (as opposed to Lombardo or Daitz) are of this sort.

If we are all okay with scanning being fixing mistakes to almost-Homer later in the line, then we should at least be up front about that. I have no doubt that as soon as Homer passed from something that was taught orally, becoming something that was learned from a text, you had this sort of scanning appear.
I listened to it again several times and I think you are right. It sounds good but it's not hexameter. I don't think it's quite enough to say that he's just illustrating synizesis, as it's precisely that syllable which is the root of the problem. However, I think it's conceivable that this is a very exceptional case where the poet actually pronounced σκ as a single consonant — we should see how other similar cases behave. However, the burden of proof lies with the one who pronounces it like that, because it's really quite a radical change.

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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by jeidsath » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:07 pm

There are cases in Homer where σκ is scanned as a single syllable, but only in forms of Σκαμάνδριος. It doesn't work here because we get an extra foot. However, since it's an extra foot in the middle of four long feet, all that you really notice is a little slowness in the line when you listen to Nagy.
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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by Paul Derouda » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:31 pm

Yes, that's what I meant though unclearly: it's not hexameter. It doesn't offend our ear so much because it still has longs and pairs of shorts alternating.

Or rather, what's happening more precisely is that in the second foot we have ssl instead of the permitted lss or ll. It doesn't give offence in the same way as a sequence -lsl- or -sss- immediately would in any position. In some other Greek meters this substitution is even permitted I believe.

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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by ariphron » Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:42 am

mwh wrote:Joel, I appreciate the work you’ve put into this, and some might find your marked-up version helpful. But I have to tell you that any classicist worthy of the name would be able to read these lines without difficulty, and would find your mark-up more distracting than useful. What your annotation fails to do is elucidate the phenomena, and it positively conceals the structural dynamics. There’s more to understanding how the hexameter works than being able to scan it.
I'm not quite sure why I didn't notice this thread before today, but (not wishing to comment on the metrical accuracy of various recordings) I would like to say a few things about the usefulness of the marked-up format.

First of all, I am impressed that Joel was able to put together some code that approaches 100% accuracy in scanning Homeric lines. Apparently, the only place the algorithm requires specific lexical knowledge is in distinguishing long vowels (upper macron) from short-scanned-as-long (lower macron). It would possibly be helpful to distinguish cases where the lower macron derives from a digamma from those where it arises from a liquid that may be geminated or those where is is purely genre-specific metris gratia, but not enough to justify compiling a dictionary for the purpose.

When I made my recording of Odyssey Z, I read from a copy marked up to a comparable or greater degree. I didn't mark many long vowels, but I marked a caesura in every line, even when I couldn't figure out which was the structurally primary caesura, and my main reason for doing so was so that I could see how many feet the first few words were supposed to take up without looking to the end of the verse. There were many lines that I could scan easily when reading silently, but that tripped me up when reading out loud. Joel's markup solves that problem by ensuring that every word can be scanned without first taking the entire line into memory.

Clearly the primary audience for this marked-up version is students rather than classicists, as any classicist worthy of the name will have read through every line of Homer multiple times with attention to meter. I will say that a classicist who wishes to minimize distracting markup should welcome an edition of Homer that eliminates punctuation. But I agree with Joel about the usefulness to students; for any imaginable student at the intermediate level, this markup will greatly reduce the effort required and the mistakes made in scanning.

What Michael sees as a shortcoming in this system, I see as a strength. All those macrons, synizesis circles and correption marks are completely objective; they are facts derived from the text prior to any interpretation. As such, they should be very easy to ignore for someone who doesn't need them. Anything that would elucidate the phenomena and reveal the structural dynamics is a matter of low-level interpretation. (Presumably, etymological reconstructions would be the main examples of the former, and the latter would involve marking key caesurae, the bucolic dieresis and recurring half-line formulae.) In-line annotation of that sort would be distracting, especially when the reader's view differs from the editor's. Besides, it can't be automated, so Joel isn't likely to do it.

In short, I would rather read Homer out loud from this than from any other edition, except my own laboriously marked-up copies of Odyssey Books 6 and 9.

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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by Callisper » Sun May 12, 2019 3:55 am

ariphron wrote:
Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:42 am
First of all, I am impressed that Joel was able to put together some code that approaches 100% accuracy in scanning Homeric lines.
Sorry to resurrect an old thread - but is this true, jeidsath?! How much intervention is required on your part? For instance, how many lines would you guess required your individual attention as you scanned the entire Iliad & Odyssey?

Such a tool would be of much interest, particularly if that number is low.

See for instance Musisque Deoque: http://mizar.unive.it/mqdq/public/indic ... tipo/crono. The PedeCerto scansion tool together with occasional intervention of the scholars working on it has been responsible for creating fully scanned digital versions of a very large corpus of Latin hexametric (and elegiac) poetry. The usefulness of such a tool is considerable (efforts to 'read-aloud' quite aside), not only for large-scale statistics but also in the particulars (metrical searches and the like: have a browse of PedeCerto). Something similar for Greek would be great - there is this website which, like you, has scanned Iliad & Odyssey, and much other Greek hexametric poetry, already: http://hypotactic.com/latin/index.html?Use_Id=about - but what I would quite like is to be able to add Quintus and Nonnus to something like that.

Both such efforts - Musisque Deoque's Latin tool, and the Greek one - would benefit from being extended to include poetry in other meters. As you'll see, on the website I linked, Greek drama is a major desideratum. But perhaps it's too much to hope for that your tools might be able to help with that.

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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by markcmueller » Fri May 17, 2019 12:02 pm

I've been listening to the Iliad from time to time in the car on the way to work. My thinking is that I want to get a feel for the verse so that when I finally get to Homer I'll have some familiarity. I have Lombardo and Barry Powell as well as Julius Tomin. I'm not aware of any continuous reading by Nagy.

What do you think of Tomin?

http://www.juliustomin.org/greekreadaloud/homer.html

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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by ariphron » Fri May 24, 2019 7:05 am

Callisper wrote:
Sun May 12, 2019 3:55 am

Sorry to resurrect an old thread - but is this true, jeidsath?! How much intervention is required on your part? For instance, how many lines would you guess required your individual attention as you scanned the entire Iliad & Odyssey?

There was that other thread, which I found some time after I wrote the post above, in which jeidsath described the software tool in more detail.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=64573&p=178104#p178104

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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by scotistic » Sat May 25, 2019 6:47 am

markcmueller wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:02 pm
I've been listening to the Iliad from time to time in the car on the way to work. My thinking is that I want to get a feel for the verse so that when I finally get to Homer I'll have some familiarity. I have Lombardo and Barry Powell as well as Julius Tomin. I'm not aware of any continuous reading by Nagy.

What do you think of Tomin?

http://www.juliustomin.org/greekreadaloud/homer.html
I listened to all of Tomin's Iliad recordings twice, as well as to most of his other Greek recordings. I found them very valuable for reading along with the text, to force myself to try to speed up my comprehension and not rely on helps I might not need.

You may find these recordings helpful as well, of all of the Iliad and the first seven books of the Odyssey:

https://archive.org/details/@daveamch

The reading is slower than Tomin's, and the emphasis is much more on the meter than the sense. I think I prefer Tomin's straightforward conversational delivery overall but I think I've benefited from both.

There's a complete edition of the Odyssey in progress over on librivox, by the way, read by a woman with modern Greek pronunciation. She's done some other recordings, and similarly librivox has seven books of Thucydides read in the modern pronunciation. I know there's some debate here on whether that's a good idea, but I haven't spent any time with those recordings yet and don't have an opinion.

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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by donhamiltontx » Tue May 28, 2019 4:52 pm

Earlier, I enjoyed Tomin's readings as well, what little I've listend to. Now I can say the same about Chamberlain's. Thanks for sharing him.
I also once listened to a bit of I think it was the Crito from the librivox recording.
ἐς Τροίαν πειρώμενοι ἦνθον ᾿Αχαιοί,
καλλίστα παίδων: πείρᾳ θην πάντα τελεῖται.
Theocritus, Idyll 15

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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by markcmueller » Wed May 29, 2019 12:05 pm

Scotistic, thanks for the link to Chamberlain's Odyssey. My first impression was that his reading is rather sing-songy whereas I immediately took to Tomin. I'm slowly coming to accept that for the purpose of internalizing meter, Chamberlain's reading may be the best for me. I'm guided by Leonard Muellner's advice -- get the rhythm into your body:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnkE02S9M7w&t=4s

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Re: First 100 lines of the Iliad

Post by Diachronix » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:31 pm

markcmueller wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 12:02 pm
There's a complete edition of the Odyssey in progress over on librivox, by the way, read by a woman with modern Greek pronunciation. She's done some other recordings, and similarly librivox has seven books of Thucydides read in the modern pronunciation. I know there's some debate here on whether that's a good idea, but I haven't spent any time with those recordings yet and don't have an opinion.
Interesting. I think this is the Librivox recording scotistic is referring to (by Ἑλένη Κεμικτσή):
https://librivox.org/book-1-of-the-odyssey-by-homer/

If this is a different recording, I'd love to know what other versions are out there using Modern Greek pronunciation. Ioannis Stratakis (Podium-Arts) is my favorite example of native Greek speaker using Restored Classical Pronunciation. But he takes some small liberties with the meter.

It's funny that using Modern Greek pronunciation is described in terms of whether or not it's a "good idea". It's simply the way Greek people are taught to pronounce Ancient Greek (and Katharevousa, for the older generations) in Greek schools. But I guess one could characterize this practice as a good/bad "idea" outside of Greece, where there is a plethora of competing pronunciation systems to choose from.

In those recordings, Eleni Kemiktsi's reading seems a bit odd to me in several respects. First of all, she's following word stress rather than prosody/meter. But she pronounces word-initial rough breathing with aspiration with varying consistency, which is unusual. And she seems to de-voice her γ, making it sound a lot like χ. She's trying hard to speak very slowly and articulately. But that would lull me to sleep if I tried to listen to it for a long time. Overall, I think she sounds pretty awkward. If you're going to read the text like it's prose, using word stress, I think it would be better to pick up the pace and read it in a more conversational manner.

Here's a metrical version of the 1st 42 lines of the Iliad with Modern Greek pronunciation, "rapped" to a UK Grime beat (with added scansion and translations in English & Demoitc Greek, by N. Kazantzakis):
https://youtu.be/i_jEkH2QFOc

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