That curve ball, QUIA

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mariek
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Post by mariek » Fri Jul 18, 2003 7:04 pm

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=242;start=15#1556 date=1058536877]<br />The 3rd declension is kinda different from the 1st and 2nd, and I strongly recommend drilling the living daylights out of the endings on that one. But after you get it, the number of words you're able to deal with positively explodes.[/quote]<br /><br />So that means the majority of the Latin nouns fall under the 3rd declension?<br /><br />

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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Post by benissimus » Fri Jul 18, 2003 9:51 pm

I'm with Milito... 3rd declension is a pain, and it brings up other problems with adjectives and gender. I would conjecture that 3rd declension holds about 50% more words than 1st or 2nd.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Post by Milito » Mon Jul 21, 2003 4:03 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=242;start=30#1579 date=1058555082]<br /><br />So that means the majority of the Latin nouns fall under the 3rd declension?<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />...... yup.<br /><br />I can't tell you what it is by percentage, but I'm sure that must be available somewhere from the really statistically-minded.....<br /><br />And actually, they break down into sub-categories, too. They all have the same endings, pretty much (with a few exceptions that use '-i' where the others use '-e', but those are easy to sort out, due to the over-abundance of '-i-' elsewhere in the words........) You have the ones that end in '-or', the ones that end it '-tas', the ones that end in a consonant + '-s', and so on. All this does is give you a bit of a heads-up toward what the noun stem will be. When you sit back and look at it, it's still very well-ordered and logical, as though part of a language developed by engineers, rather than sort of growing over time. <br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Post by Episcopus » Mon Jul 21, 2003 6:08 pm

Qué?! The 3rd dec. has about 50 sub-declensions!! <br /><br />For me, 1st and second sound so natural, bar 'puer' and the like; but this is taking the bishop.
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Post by ingrid70 » Mon Jul 21, 2003 6:12 pm

[quote author=Episcopus link=board=3;threadid=242;start=30#1734 date=1058810910]<br />Qué?! The 3rd dec. has about 50 sub-declensions!! <br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />That's the way it is thought in BLD: liquid stems, mute stems, etc. The endings are the same. <br />The variation comes with i-stems and mixed stems, and there are a lot of sometimes (this word has mostly -i but sometimes -e in the ablative...I've always had that nagging suspicion that the Romans weren't to sure about those endings themselves :D. )<br /><br />So basically there are just 3 variations, not too many to learn, I should think :).<br /><br />Ingrid
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Post by mariek » Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:59 am

[quote author=Milito link=board=3;threadid=242;start=30#1728 date=1058803391]When you sit back and look at it, it's still very well-ordered and logical, as though part of a language developed by engineers, rather than sort of growing over time. [/quote]<br />If it's logical, then there's hope for me to learn it. At least it'll make more sense than English! :) I really believe that English has a lot of curve balls that makes it difficult for people to pick up as a second language.<br />

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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Post by mariek » Tue Jul 22, 2003 7:05 am

Here's a thought. :o <br /><br />Since some nouns look like they belong to one declension when in actually they're actually another declension ... why don't the Latin dictionaries include info like what declension a noun is. Maybe a code like 1D, 2D, 3D, 4D and 5D. They can include this after their abreviation for gender. For example:<br /><br />fabula, -ae n 1d<br />frumentum, -ae n, 2d<br /><br />Something like this would really help us out.<br /><br />I haven't learned verbs yet, but I'm sure this can be applied to verbs too. Maybe 1C, 2C, 3C, and 4C to denote the verb conjugations.

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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Post by Milito » Tue Jul 22, 2003 2:00 pm

Actually, telling you what declension or conjugation a noun or verb follows is extra information. By telling you (for nouns) the nominative singular and genitive singular, you ****know**** what declension it is. In fact, the only reason you need to know the nominative singular at all is that it is often a bit different from the rest of the declension. Similarly, the 4 principle parts of the verbs tell you what conjugations they are.<br /><br />Nouns -<br /><br />IF the Gen Sing ends in 'ae', it must be a first declension noun.<br />IF the Gen Sing ends in 'i', it must be a second declension noun.<br />IF the Gen Sing ends in 'is', it must be a third declension noun.<br />IF the Gen Sing ends in 'us', it must be a fourth declension noun.<br />IF the Gen Sing ends in 'ei' (or just 'i', but the Nom Sing ends in 'es') it must be a fifth declension noun.<br /><br />That's all there is to it.<br /><br />Verbs - <br /><br />IF the first person singular (1st Principle Part - 1PP) ends in '-o', and the present active infinitive (2nd Principle Part) ends in '-are', it must be a 1st conjugation. <br />IF the 1PP ends in '-eo' (a long e) and the 2PP ends in '-ere' (a long e), it must be a 2nd conjugation.<br />IF the 1PP ends in '-o' or '-io' and the 2PP ends in '-ere' (a short e), it must be a 3rd conjugation.<br />IF the 1PP ends in '-io' and the 2PP ends in '-ire', it must be a 4th conjugation.<br /><br />That's all there is to it again.....<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Post by mariek » Tue Jul 22, 2003 7:05 pm

<br />Thank you so much! Thanks for explaining it all like that, it makes it so much easier to understand. I've filed this away in my "grammar" notes, along with Beniss' pronunciation guide. The verbs look pretty easy to figure out now that you've laid it out that way. I think the nouns will be a bit tricky since you still have to figure out what the genitive singular is, because the dictionary only gives you the NOM singular and NOM plural for the nouns. Perhaps it'll get easier for me once I learn and get a handle on all 5 noun declensions. I'm still stuck on -us and -um 2nd declension nouns.<br /><br />

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Re:That curve ball, QUIA

Post by Milito » Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:33 pm

[quote author=mariek link=board=3;threadid=242;start=30#1812 date=1058900730]<br /><br />I think the nouns will be a bit tricky since you still have to figure out what the genitive singular is, because the dictionary only gives you the NOM singular and NOM plural for the nouns. <br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />NO! The dictionary actually gives you the Nom Singular and the GEN Singulary for all nouns, because the Gen Sing is what you use to figure out how the rest of the noun is supposed to look. It just so happens that the Nom Plural and the Gen Singular of 1st declension and 2nd declension (Masculine) nouns are identical! So you're actually home free! (Assuming you know the paradigms........)<br /><br />Kilmeny
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