Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

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Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by starren » Sun Dec 07, 2014 10:37 am

i came across this word and tried to think of a translation, but I'm not entirely sure. The following things I know:
It comes from the word θνησκω wich means 'to die' and when it's in perfectum form you translate it as
'to be dead' or 'to be killed'
I can see that it's a perfectum participle, and that its middle and accusative singular, but with the sudden ξ in de middle I got a bit confused, so I wanted to ask if someone of you guys could help me out.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by Qimmik » Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:26 pm

This is a strange form, but it does exist. It's a future middle formed anomalously from the perfect τέθνηκα, "to be dead." LSJ cites Libanius for the participle.

LSJ θνῄσκω:
from τέθνηκα arose fut. “τεθνήξω” Ar.Ach.325, A.Ag.1279 (censured as archaic by Luc.Sol.7), later “τεθνήξομαι” Diogenian.Epicur.1.28, 3.52, Luc.Pisc. 10, Ael.NA2.46; part. “τεθνηξόμενος” Lib.Ep.438.7.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... qnh%2F|skw

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by starren » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:19 pm

Ah, I didn't see that one !
So if I'm correct τον τεθνεξομενον should be translated as 'the one who will be dead'?

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by Qimmik » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:44 pm

So if I'm correct τον τεθνεξομενον should be translated as 'the one who will be dead'?

You're correct.

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by Markos » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:56 pm

Qimmik wrote:This is a strange form, but it does exist... LSJ θνῄσκω:
from τέθνηκα arose fut. “τεθνήξω” Ar.Ach.325, A.Ag.1279 (censured as archaic by Luc.Sol.7), later “τεθνήξομαι” Diogenian.Epicur.1.28, 3.52, Luc.Pisc. 10, Ael.NA2.46; part. “τεθνηξόμενος” Lib.Ep.438.7.
Thanks for tracking this down, Bill. As a stranger I shall give it welcome, as Hamlet might say.
starren wrote:So if I'm correct τον τεθνεξομενον should be translated as 'the one who will be dead'
Suppose that someone said:
ἐπαύριον, μετὰ τὸν πόλεμον, Θεοῦ θέλοντος, τὸν τεθνηξόμενον τιμήσω δή.
"Tomorrow, after the battle, God willing, I will honor the X."

"Should" one render this as "the dead," "the one who will be dead" or "the one who will have died" or "the one who would have been dead" or with something else. As one asks the question, one realizes that this has almost nothing to do with the Greek. The meaning of the Greek in the sentence is quite clear. When one thinks in terms of translation, one introduces questions of English style and nuance which really divert one from understanding the Greek. This, I think, is one of the reasons Grammar-Translation is not recommended by some.

I think, I may be wrong, but I think, that τὸν τεθνηξόμενον in my sentence means essentially the same thing as τοὺς νεκρούς. The reason I may be wrong is that questions of Greek style and nuance are harder even than those of English.

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by Qimmik » Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:00 pm

Ave Caesar, cadavera te salutamus?

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:58 pm

Qimmik wrote:This is a strange form, but it does exist. It's a future middle formed anomalously from the perfect τέθνηκα, "to be dead." LSJ cites Libanius for the participle.

LSJ θνῄσκω:
from τέθνηκα arose fut. “τεθνήξω” Ar.Ach.325, A.Ag.1279 (censured as archaic by Luc.Sol.7), later “τεθνήξομαι” Diogenian.Epicur.1.28, 3.52, Luc.Pisc. 10, Ael.NA2.46; part. “τεθνηξόμενος” Lib.Ep.438.7.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... qnh%2F|skw
a few samples from over 100.
Diogenes Vitae philosophorum
Book 2, section 13, line 9

ἐν τῷ δεσμωτηρίῳ τεθνηξόμενος. Περικλῆς δὲ παρελθὼν εἶπεν
εἴ τι ἔχουσιν ἐγκαλεῖν αὑτῷ κατὰ τὸν βίον· οὐδὲν δὲ εἰπόντων,

Plutarchus Caesar
Chapter 34, section 7, line 1

ὁ δ' ἀπογνοὺς τὰ καθ' ἑαυτόν, ᾔτησε τὸν
ἰατρὸν οἰκέτην ὄντα φάρμακον, καὶ λαβὼν τὸ δοθὲν ἔπιεν
ὡς τεθνηξόμενος.


Lucianus Soph., Tyrannicida
Section 18, line 11

ἀλλὰ διὰ τὴν ἀπόγνωσιν
εὐθὺς ἠπιστάμην τεθνηξόμενον αὐτὸν καὶ λογιού-
μενον ὡς οὐδὲν ἔτι τοῦ ζῆν ὄφελος τῆς ἐκ τοῦ παιδὸς
ἀσφαλείας καθῃρημένης.

Flavius Josephus Hist., Antiquitates Judaicae (
Book 2, chapter 151, line 5

εἰ καὶ ἡ κακία σε παροξύνει νῦν
ἡ ἡμετέρα, τὸ κατ' αὐτῆς δίκαιον χάρισαι τῷ πατρὶ καὶ δυνηθήτω
πλέον ὁ πρὸς ἐκεῖνον ἔλεος τῆς ἡμετέρας πονηρίας καὶ γῆρας ἐν
ἐρημίᾳ βιωσόμενον καὶ τεθνηξόμενον ἡμῶν ἀπολομένων αἴδεσαι,
τῷ πατέρων ὀνόματι ταύτην χαριζόμενος τὴν δωρεάν.

Flavius Josephus Hist., Antiquitates Judaicae
Book 6, chapter 195, line 6

χώραν ἀμείνονα μὲν ἀσφαλεστέραν δὲ ὡς ἐνόμιζεν αὑτῷ· ἐβούλετο
γὰρ εἰς τοὺς πολεμίους αὐτὸν ἐκπέμπειν καὶ τὰς μάχας ὡς ἐν
τοῖς κινδύνοις τεθνηξόμενον.

Flavius Josephus Hist., Antiquitates Judaicae
Book 7, chapter 266, line 4

σύ τε, εἶπεν, ὦ Σαμούι,
θάρρει καὶ δείσῃς μηδὲν ὡς τεθνηξόμενος.”


Flavius Josephus Hist., Antiquitates Judaicae
Book 19, chapter 124, line 3

καὶ μηδὲν αἰδουμένων αὐτοῦ τὴν ἀξίωσιν ἰσχύι προύχων ἀφαιρεῖ-
ται τὸ ξίφος τῷ πρώτῳ τῶν ἐπιόντων συμπλακεὶς φανερός τε ἦν
οὐκ ἀπραγμόνως τεθνηξόμενος, μέχρι δὴ περισχεθεὶς πολλοῖς τῶν
ἐπιφερομένων ἔπεσεν ὑπὸ πλήθους τραυμάτων.

Origenes Contra Celsum
Book 2, section 16, line 53

Οὐ μόνον οὖν οὐχ ὁ νεκρὸς ἀθάνατος, ἀλλ' οὐδ' ὁ πρὸ
τοῦ νεκροῦ Ἰησοῦς ὁ σύνθετος ἀθάνατος ἦν, ὅς γε ἔμελλε
τεθνήξεσθαι. Οὐδεὶς γὰρ τεθνηξόμενος ἀθάνατος ἀλλ'
ἀθάνατος, ὅτε οὐκέτι τεθνήξεται. «Χριστὸς δὲ ἐγερθεὶς
ἐκ νεκρῶν οὐκέτι ἀποθνῄσκει· θάνατος αὐτοῦ οὐκέτι
κυριεύει»· κἂν μὴ βούλωνται οἱ ταῦτα πῶς εἴρηται
νοῆσαι μὴ χωρήσαντες.

Origenes Philocalia
Chapter 23, section 16, line 11

περιέχειν γὰρ οἴονται τὴν ἑκάστου γένεσιν ἀδελφὸν ὑπὸ
λῃστῶν τεθνηξόμενον, ὁμοίως καὶ τὴν τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τὴν
τῆς μητρὸς καὶ τὴν τῆς γαμετῆς καὶ τῶν υἱῶν αὐτοῦ καὶ
τῶν οἰκετῶν καὶ τῶν φιλτάτων, τάχα δὲ καὶ αὐτῶν τῶν
ἀναιρούντων.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by Qimmik » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:44 pm

As best I can tell from the passages quoted by CSB, it seems that τεθνηξόμενος was used as a future active/middle participle of [ἀπο]θνῄσκω equivalent to [ἀπο]θανοῦμενος, though I can't say I've encountered this form in my reading.

I don't see what's gained by substituting νεκρός. In none of the quoted passages can νεκρός be substituted for τεθνηξόμενος without changing the meaning or producing nonsense. And I don't see how analyzing τεθνηξόμενος as a future participle or translating it as such vitiates the so-called "grammar-translation" method of learning Greek, by which I assume is meant the traditional approach of learning grammar--memorizing forms and learning the essential rules of syntax.

The traditional learning approach doesn't mean you translate everything you read into English. The idea is to learn the grammar, then internalize it by reading and paying close attention to grammatical structure. As you internalize the grammar, you move away from translating everything word for word--sooner or later, as you accumulate vocabulary by reading, you're reading Greek as you would English or a modern language, with occasional recourse to the dictionary and even sometimes to a grammar book. That's the way I learned ancient Greek, and I daresay virtually all of the outstanding scholars of Greek, from Lorenzo Valla to M.L. West learned it that way, too. It's not necessarily an easy process, and it takes time, but failing to pay attention to grammar in the initial stages of learning will ultimately make it twice as hard, if not impossible, to extract meaning from Greek texts.

And even after you've started reading Greek fluently, translation is sometimes helpful as a test of comprehension, especially where there's doubt as to the meaning of a passage (even though translation can never manage to capture all of the meaning of the original). There are many passages in almost every ancient author--especially those writing in a highly formal or a colloquial register--where the meaning is not clear or is subject to diverse interpretations. Translation helps to clarify the issues in these passages.

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:11 pm

Qimmik wrote:The traditional learning approach doesn't mean you translate everything you read into English.


Up until fairly recently Koine pedagogy[1] was focused on grammar-translation. Now days you have second language proponents like Randall Buth.



[1] a.k.a. "seminary greek"
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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by jeidsath » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:04 pm

I recommend Whitesell on Learning to Read a Foreign Language

Mechanical inefficiency is the real enemy, not grammar study. If your “grammar-translation” method is mechanically inefficient, and makes you a passive transferrer of information from book to notebook, you can invest a great deal of effort without learning much.
”The writer recently had to fail a graduate student in an examination for a reading knowledge of German required for the doctoral degree. The student was amazed at his total inability to read German, and showed me a folder containing some two hundred neatly typed pages of translation from the very book used for the examination. It was not a difficult book, but everything the student had done was on paper and only on paper. The words had simply transferred themselves from book to dictionary to paper, and the the student had done nothing that a good sorting machine or a docile moron could not do. An extreme case, yes, but an illustrative one that shows clearly what is not so clear in other similar cases.”
If you avoid such inefficiency with grammar-translation I’m sure that it’s just as Qimmik says. With my added proviso that the people who seem to learn Greek in an academic setting tend to start both rich and young.

Boris Johnson

For me, grammar study is only exciting once I’ve learned enough for it to illustrate things what I already mostly or partly understand. However, the only (study rather than exposure) polyglot that I know personally uses grammar study to create a good working foundation for writing/speaking, which he in turn uses to crack open the door to massive input learning.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by mwh » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:20 pm

Another amen to Qimmik. I agree with Markos (and Qimmik) that we should be aiming at reading without translating—the only point of translation is to communicate, however imperfectly, one’s understanding of the meaning of the original—but grammar must be learned, and rather than continually saying that X means “essentially” the same as Y it’s better to set about apprehending the difference between them—as Qimmik’s delightful “cadavera te salutamus” illustrates.

Second-language methodologies would be fine if there were native speakers of koine greek, or of NT greek (an absurd term), or if ancient greek were a living language. But there aren’t, and it isn't. All we have is the written texts.

As to form, it looks as if the regularly formed θνήξομαι is secondary to the old reduplicated form which gained or regained a hold thanks to classicizing writers. Or did it arise independently, by simple analogical leveling (cf. e.g. διδάξω)? I suspect the latter.

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by Qimmik » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:08 pm

Up until fairly recently Koine pedagogy[1] was focused on grammar-translation. Now days you have second language proponents like Randall Buth.

[1] a.k.a. "seminary greek"
It's probably not impossible to teach "New Testament" Greek in seminaries by less grammar-oriented methods because most seminarians already have a good idea what the Greek texts mean and they don't need to go much beyond that particular collection of texts. But I question how well that approach would work with Plato or Demosthenes or Thucydides, or drama or Pindar.

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by Markos » Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:56 am

C. S. Bartholomew wrote: a few samples from over 100...
This is very helpful. Some of these citations, for example
Flavius Josephus Hist., Antiquitates Judaicae
Book 7, chapter 266, line 4
σύ τε, εἶπεν, ὦ Σαμούι,
θάρρει καὶ δείσῃς μηδὲν ὡς τεθνηξόμενος.”
are so simple and easy to understand, even for beginners, that they do provide an alternate (non-Grammar-Translation) way to answer starren's original question.
Qimmik wrote:...τεθνηξόμενος was...equivalent to [ἀπο]θανοῦμενος...
This is another alternate (non-Grammar-Translation) way to answer starren's original question, i.e. target language paraphrase.
Ave Caesar, cadavera te salutamus?
In a sense, yes, because in the long run we are all dead.
starren wrote:I can see that it's a perfectum participle...
Maybe, sort of, partially, in form (but note the accent) but I don't see any such force in the citations given by Clayton.

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by Qimmik » Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:10 pm

Qimmik wrote:...τεθνηξόμενος was...equivalent to [ἀπο]θανοῦμενος...

This is another alternate (non-Grammar-Translation) way to answer starren's original question, i.e. target language paraphrase.
No, it's grammatical analysis, not a paraphrase. τεθνηξόμενος is an alternative form of the future participle of θνῄσκω. It occupies a specific slot in the paradigm of this verb, and the meaning of this word can only be understood in the framework of Greek verbal morphology. Many Greek verbs have alternative forms like this.

The translation should be "who will die" or "who is about to die" (like moriturus), and, to correct what I wrote earlier, not necessarily "who will be dead."

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by mwh » Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:24 pm

Markos wrote:
Ave Caesar, cadavera te salutamus?
In a sense, yes, because in the long run we are all dead.
Markos, Are you suggesting that there’s no essential difference between morituri and cadavera in this context (or indeed in any context)? That is quite indefensible. Surely you can see that?

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by Markos » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:27 am

mwh wrote:
Markos wrote:
Ave Caesar, cadavera te salutamus?
In a sense, yes, because in the long run we are all dead.
Markos, Are you suggesting that there’s no essential difference between morituri and cadavera in this context...?
No, I'm not suggesting that. I don't know, though, how, in the real world, this would be said in English. "We are the dead, Mr. President. We salute you." I read recently that playing in the NFL reduces your life expectancy by about 30 years.
...or indeed in any context?
Maybe Orwell:
We are the dead.
mwh wrote:I agree with Markos...that we should be aiming at reading without translating...
Then I shall quit while I am ahead. :D

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by daivid » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:23 am

mwh wrote: Second-language methodologies would be fine if there were native speakers of koine greek, or of NT greek (an absurd term), or if ancient greek were a living language. But there aren’t, and it isn't. All we have is the written texts.
A lot of the techniques for teaching modern languages do not especially rely on native speakers. When I was doing a Teaching English as a Foreign Language the most important technique was paired listening between non-native speakers.

And we don't just have the written texts.

The recordings in Rico's Polis are not of native speakers but they as lively as if they were and by engaging an extra sense they are more memorable.

And trying to work out what is being said by listening means that you have to be more intuitive (this applies to recordings of real ancient Greek texts as much as of the Polis recordings.

Which isn't to say I would feel comfortable junking the traditional methods entirely (or am displaying a failure to decide between the two approaches? :( )
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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by y11971alex » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:05 pm

Is this the elusive future perfect? :3
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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by Qimmik » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:00 pm

Smyth analyzes this as a future perfect, although in the examples above it seems more like a pure future:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.04.0007

LSJ seems to view this as a pure future.

The rare and elusive future perfect is usually formed by adding -σομαι to the perfect middle stem, but θνῄσκω doesn't normally have a perfect middle stem.

To be sure, the semantic difference between future and future perfect for this verb would seem to be very slight--"to be about to die" vs. "to be about to be dead," but the examples cited above seem to call for a future, rather than a future perfect, interpretation: "about to undergo the act/process of dying."

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by Paul Derouda » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:42 pm

As someone pointed out, wouldn't future perfect be accented τεθνηξομένος and future τεθνηξόμενος?

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by Qimmik » Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:06 pm

As someone pointed out, wouldn't future perfect be accented τεθνηξομένος and future τεθνηξόμενος?
That doesn't seem to be the case. According to Smyth, there is "only one sure example [of the future perfect participle] in classical Greek", and that is apparently accented recessively (although of course the accentuation of our texts is frequently a matter of dispute in small, obscure matters and there's really no way to be certain):

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ythp%3D582

But, as noted above, Smyth would apparently think that τεθνηξομένος is a future perfect (although he may regard it as post-classical).

Chantraine, Morphologie historique du grec, pp. 254-5, views this as a reduplicated future (futur à redoublement).

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by Paul Derouda » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:35 pm

Ok, so for all practical purposes, future perfect participle doesn't exist, and the one or few cases we have are more or less aberrations. Thanks for that, I didn't know!

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by Qimmik » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:55 pm

Now that you know this, you'll have to stop using so many future perfect particples.

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by Paul Derouda » Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:00 pm

daivid wrote:
mwh wrote: Second-language methodologies would be fine if there were native speakers of koine greek, or of NT greek (an absurd term), or if ancient greek were a living language. But there aren’t, and it isn't. All we have is the written texts.
A lot of the techniques for teaching modern languages do not especially rely on native speakers. When I was doing a Teaching English as a Foreign Language the most important technique was paired listening between non-native speakers.
You know, I don't really speak English. Although I read it almost as easily as my native language and I don't feel much of a handicap when I write here, I've never spoken English much. I've never been in an English-speaking country. I hear English on the TV, but unless I really concentrate I have a hard time to follow without reading the subtitles. I have no problem using English with other non-natives, but native speakers of English (which I meet quite rarely) are a sometimes a serious pain – they speak too fast (and some take you for an idiot when you don't understand). And since I mispronounce vowels and stress wrong syllables, native speakers have a hard time understanding what I say (pérmit -- noun, permít -- verb, or was it the other way round?), although, strangely enough, non-natives understand more easily mistakes of this sort.

But my point was that I think there might be a tendency here to exaggerate the importance of audio and speaking here for learning to read a language that is long dead. Reconstructed audio is interesting for it's own sake, but I don't think it's necessary for the reading part.

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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by y11971alex » Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:04 am

Paul Derouda wrote:As someone pointed out, wouldn't future perfect be accented τεθνηξομένος and future τεθνηξόμενος?
Smyth 582 wrote:Not all verbs can form a future perfect; and few forms of this tense occur outside of the indicative: διαπεπολεμησόμενον Thyc. 7. 25. is the only sure example of the participle in classical Greek.
So I should think the future perfect, being a thematic formation, may have tended towards the recessive accent typical of thematic forms.
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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by jeidsath » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:04 am

If we are going to admit Qimmik's suggestion that learning the language without early grammar study may make things harder later on[1] surely there is room for the idea that learning without speaking and listening practice may make things harder? Especially in a dead language where there are so few ways to get input.

Also, I would be interested in the stories that Paul might have to tell about the people he knows who have failed to learn English, despite investment of time and money. What were their methods?

[1] Actually this statement, unlike most of what he says here, is somewhat bizarre to me. What would be the mechanism? I could certainly see how the opposite could be true. Studying grammar before your mind has a mental database of usage that corresponds to it could easily mislead a learner.
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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by Paul Derouda » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:35 pm

jeidsath wrote:Also, I would be interested in the stories that Paul might have to tell about the people he knows who have failed to learn English, despite investment of time and money. What were their methods?
Failing to learn English is rare here. In the capital at least, you're unlikely to find anyone under 50 who doesn't know English. People are very motivated, and you have the TV (which I don't watch so much, which is one reason for my bad oral skills...), the Internet etc. You can't study at university level without reading English. But I know plenty of people, myself included, who have failed to learn other languages. I think the common factor is lack of motivation. Mindlessly going through grammar drills because the teacher tells you so, as if language study was just learning grammar rules by heart. People study a language at school for years and they never read a single page in that language in their free time, never even think that they could actually use the language they've studied for anything at all. (I suspect 95 % of language learners in English-speaking countries belong to this category. That's human nature.) For example, here Swedish is compulsory at school, but most of us talk English with Swedes (including myself).

C. S. Bartholomew
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Re: Translation of the word τον τεθνηξομενον

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Fri Dec 12, 2014 4:43 pm

jeidsath wrote:If we are going to admit Qimmik's suggestion that learning the language without early grammar study may make things harder later on[1] surely there is room for the idea that learning without speaking and listening practice may make things harder? Especially in a dead language where there are so few ways to get input.

[1] Actually this statement, unlike most of what he says here, is somewhat bizarre to me. What would be the mechanism? I could certainly see how the opposite could be true. Studying grammar before your mind has a mental database of usage that corresponds to it could easily mislead a learner.
Paul Derouda wrote: Mindlessly going through grammar drills because the teacher tells you so, as if language study was just learning grammar rules by heart.

This has been discused for ever on b-greek. I think the tendency on both sides is to consturct a straw man and demolish it. Randall Buth's framework seemed to me at first to be hopelessly impractical. He sent me a demo CD of his restored pronunciation 15 years ago. I listened to it and decided Erasmus was good enough for my purposes. Now days I agree with Buth on the question of metalanguage. It is perfectly useless to become an expert on traditional grammar metalanguage. You need some of it to get by in your classes in school. But reading texts doesn't require it and if spend your time reading texts rather than reviewing metalanguage you learned several decades ago you will forget the metalanguage fairly rapidly.

The other hassle with metalanguage is frameworks. On b-greek there are a multitude of frameworks which all have a metalanguage. Most of linguistically inclined are highly eclectic. Randall Buth and Stephen Levinsohn taught workshops together on discourse analysis decades ago but they don't use exactly the same framework nor do they use the terminology with exactly the same meaning. Younger guys like Michael Aubrey are from a different galaxy. Stephen Carlson can discuss things with Michael Aubrey and I don't have a clue what they are talking about.

Arguments about frameworks and metalanguage are a dead end. Waste of time.

Another issue with frameworks is the unit of analysis. If you are in habit of viewing the nuclear clause as the primary focus of syntax analysis then you will be left out of discussions which look at higher level structures. Some of the same terminology will be used but it doesn't mean the same thing.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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