Livy 21

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Livy 21

Post by derfner » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:07 am

Okay, I'm working through Lingua Latina per se Illustrata, and I'm starting chapter 48, about the Second Punic War. I'm having trouble with this sentence: "Odiis etiam prope maioribus certaverunt quam viribus, Romanis indignantibus quod victoribus victi ultro inferrent arma, Poenis quod superbe avareque crederent imperitatum victis esse."

I'm fine up until the last three words. Roughly: "They fought with even more hatred than force, the Romans because they were offended that the conquered took up arms unprovoked against the conquerors, the Carthaginians because they believed proudly and greedily SOMETHING SOMETHING SOMETHING."

I'm reading "imperitatum" as a perfect passive participle--but what does it modify? And "victis" is either a dative or an ablative plural--but why would the Carthaginians think anything was done to them (I suppose I'm supplying a "se") by the conquered when they were in fact the conquered?

Canon Roberts's translation is "The Carthaginians bitterly resented what they regarded as the tyrannical and rapacious conduct of Rome," which is elegant but not particularly helpful as far as grammar goes.

I'm sure it's very obvious and simple, but I'm knocking my head against a wall trying to get there. Can anybody offer a hint or two?

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Re: Livy 21

Post by Shenoute » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:56 am

Here's my take on it, grouping related words together and supplying a very literal translation, I hope this helps.

(Poenis indignantibus) (quod crederent) (imperitatum victis esse) (superbe avareque).

(The Carthiginians being offended) (because they believed) (it had been commanded to the conquered) (arrogantly and greedily).

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Re: Livy 21

Post by adrianus » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:25 pm

What Shenoute says...Ut dicit Shenoute
"with [/as for] the Carthaginians, because they believed they [/it] had been governed arrogantly and selfishly [/to them] as ones conquered [/having been conquered]."
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.

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Re: Livy 21

Post by Victor » Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:13 pm

derfner wrote:I'm reading "imperitatum" as a perfect passive participle--but what does it modify?
It's an impersonal passive. Impersonalisation in the passive is a regular feature of verbs that when used actively are construed with the dative; cf. invidetur, creditur, persuadetur et al.

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