Reading Thucydides 2014

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mwh
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Re: Reading Thucydides 2014

Post by mwh » Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:52 pm

Good. Thanks. Gomme's "unnecessarily complicated in expression" (quoted by John) lacks force. Over to John.

John W.
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Re: Reading Thucydides 2014

Post by John W. » Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:23 pm

Many thanks to all three of you for your help - much appreciated.

pster - yes please, the Andrewes reference would be helpful when you have time.

Before reading all your replies I had started to wonder whether the construction might not be:

καὶ μάχῃ ἐκράτησαν προσβοηθήσαντας (a) τῶν ἐκ τῆς κοίλης Ἤλιδος (τριακοσίους λογάδας) καὶ (b) τῶν αὐτόθεν ἐκ τῆς περιοικίδος Ἠλείων.

'... and defeated in battle troops who had come to the rescue from those living in Hollow Elis (numbering three hundred picked men) and from the Eleans in the surrounding area.'

In other words, προσβοηθήσαντας would go with both elements, while τριακοσίους λογάδας would be in partial apposition to it, defining the size of the contingent from Hollow Elis. Before I make a final decision I'd appreciate any thoughts on whether this would be possible, or whether one would need (e.g.) τοὺς before προσβοηθήσαντας to make it work.

Otherwise I may stick to my current translation (as quoted in my first post), on the basis that, as Michael has suggested, Ἠλείων may be intended 'to distinguish from subject perioeci', which would give some point to the complexity of the expression.

Thanks again,

John

mwh
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Re: Reading Thucydides 2014

Post by mwh » Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:00 pm

Yr new alternative won't work, I'd say. 300 logadas must be direct object of ekrathsan.

I think we're there, historically credible or not. Your first translation it is, except I'd delete the comma.

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Re: Reading Thucydides 2014

Post by Qimmik » Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:16 am

I agree with mwh.

The usage you're thinking of--a subject expressed by a partitive genitive--is mentioned in Smyth sec. 928b:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ythp%3D928

But here the partitive genitive would be the direct object, not the subject. Smyth doesn't mention that, and I'm not aware of any parallels.

Again, I think the parallelism here is compelling, and I think there's historical plausibility for that reading: Thucydides needs to specify that Eleian citizens, not perioikoi, from the perioikis, were among the three hundred. I don't find that "unnecesssarily complicated in expression."

Ἠλείων should perhaps be taken with both τῶν phrases, i.e., three hundred chosen soldiers [consisting] of Eleians from Hollow Elis and of Eleians right there from the perioikis.

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pster
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Re: Reading Thucydides 2014

Post by pster » Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:33 am

A. Andrewes, 'Argive Perioikoi', in 'Owls to Athens' (i.23. 6n), 171ff., at 172.
Last edited by pster on Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

John W.
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Re: Reading Thucydides 2014

Post by John W. » Mon Dec 16, 2013 9:05 am

Thanks again to all for the further comments/information.

I'm retaining my original translation (minus comma, as suggested by Michael). However, it's been very useful to bat this one around again - it's one of those annoying little passages where you think you've (probably) got it right, but then doubts start creeping in once you revisit it. Still, that's often the way with Thucydides!

Best wishes,

John

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Re: Reading Thucydides 2014

Post by John W. » Fri Jan 10, 2014 8:52 am

A very happy new year to all Thucydidean colleagues.

To resume activity on this thread, I’d be grateful for views on a passage from Pericles’ final speech to the Athenians in Book 2. Chapter 59 has just explained that the Athenians were holding Pericles to blame for their recent misfortunes; Pericles therefore convenes an assembly, ‘as he wished to encourage them and, by drawing off the anger from their minds, to make them calmer and less fearful’. Pericles begins his speech to the assembly as follows (2.60.1):

καὶ προσδεχομένῳ μοι τὰ τῆς ὀργῆς ὑμῶν ἔς με γεγένηται (αἰσθάνομαι γὰρ τὰς αἰτίας) καὶ ἐκκλησίαν τούτου ἕνεκα ξυνήγαγον, ὅπως ὑπομνήσω καὶ μέμψωμαι εἴ τι μὴ ὀρθῶς ἢ ἐμοὶ χαλεπαίνετε ἢ ταῖς ξυμφοραῖς εἴκετε.

My translation of this currently runs:

‘As I expected (for I understand the reasons), your anger is directed against me, and I have therefore convened this assembly, so that I can remind you of certain things and censure you if you are in any way wrongly either finding fault with me or giving way to these disasters.’

My queries are:

(i) Why do we have καὶ ... καὶ here? What is the exact force of the idiom in this passage? To me it seems somewhat odd to have it right at the start of a speech. Could the second καὶ have the force of ‘and so’? In that case, there might be implications for my second query (below).

(ii) Does τούτου ἕνεκα refer backwards, to καὶ προσδεχομένῳ μοι ... γεγένηται, or forwards to ὅπως etc.? Sometimes in Thucydidean speeches (though I can’t at the moment put my finger on an example) such constructions do look forwards, in the sense ‘I have called you together for this reason, namely in order to ...’

The use of καὶ ... καὶ here may be of relevance for another passage with which I drove you all up the wall some time ago, viz. 1.77.1:

καὶ ἐλασσούμενοι γὰρ ἐν ταῖς ξυμβολαίαις πρὸς τοὺς ξυμμάχους δίκαις καὶ παρ᾽ ἡμῖν αὐτοῖς ἐν τοῖς ὁμοίοις νόμοις ποιήσαντες τὰς κρίσεις φιλοδικεῖν δοκοῦμεν.

One of the (many) difficulties with that passage was working out whether the two clauses introduced by καὶ were parallel or sequential; if the second καὶ could be inferential (‘and so’), it would increase the likelihood of a sequential sense (‘For because we were at a constant disadvantage ... and so instituted hearings of such cases ...’).

Any thoughts? Many thanks for your help.

Best wishes,

John

Qimmik
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Re: Reading Thucydides 2014

Post by Qimmik » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:09 pm

I wonder whether the first καὶ might give greater force to the participle, which is placed at the beginning of the clause. In any event, I would suggest translating προσδεχομένῳ μοι so as to make this phrase the main clause rather than a kind of parenthetical, since I think the main point of the entire clause is encapsulated more in the participial phrase than in the main verb. The point is not that the people are angry with Pericles, but that their anger is not unexpected.

Denniston pp. 317 ff. mentions that καὶ sometimes just emphasizes the word that follows, and means little more than "actually." If you have access to Denniston, I would suggest reading this section.

Maybe something like this: "Actually, I have been expecting your anger to be directed at me [exchanging the tenses of προσδεχομένῳ and γεγένηται]--I am aware of the reasons for it--and I have therefore convened . . . "

But maybe "actually" isn't really necessary here--maybe just turning the clause around to make "I have been expecting" the main verb is enough to convey the force of the first καὶ.

The second καὶ then just connects the two clauses.

With regard to your second question, I'm in equipoise. I would feel more comfortable with some examples of τούτου ἕνεκα introducing a purpose clause (your second option), but like you, I feel that I've encountered this elsewhere even if I can't put my finger on it.

mwh
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Re: Reading Thucydides 2014

Post by mwh » Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:50 pm

Qimmik's ahead of me as usual. I may as well retire from these boards. But I post what I'd written but not posted earlier:

The way I read it, the (first) two καιs are not correlative. The opening one intensifies the participle:
"I was expecting you to be angry with me (and I quite understand why you are), and …"
Without italics you'd use "actually," but this use of και often corresponds well to italics in written English. No catching supremo-statesman Pericles by surprise.

τουτου ενεκα reads most naturally backward-looking: "… and that's why I convened an assembly." There's nothing against taking it as forward-looking if you wished ("and I convened an assembly for the purpose of giving you a gentle reminder …"), but I wouldn't.

A few little points:
"your anger is directed against me" translates not ες με but ες εμε, which we might have expected but (if the text is right) don't have. Hard but necessary to keep the "me" unemphatic.

"this assembly": just "an assembly"?

"disasters": "misfortunes" here? It's always one of the most difficult words to translate, and impossible to do so consistently.

John W.
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Re: Reading Thucydides 2014

Post by John W. » Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:10 pm

Bill, Michael - many thanks for your (as always) very helpful comments.

I lifted the Greek quote from the OCT, but I'm using Alberti, which does in fact have ἐμε, so my apologies for that. I agree that τούτου ἕνεκα is most likely to be backwards looking.

I'll revise my version in the light of your comments.

Best wishes,

John

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