itaque, accent

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Lavrentivs
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itaque, accent

Post by Lavrentivs » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:48 pm

Is itaque pænultimate?

adrianus
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Re: itaque, accent

Post by adrianus » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:41 pm

A&G §12
ita'que = and so
i'taque = therefore
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.

mwh
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Re: itaque, accent

Post by mwh » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:05 pm

Interesting question, implausible answer. What's A&G?

adrianus
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Re: itaque, accent

Post by adrianus » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:47 pm

mwh wrote:Interesting question, implausible answer. What's A&G?
Cur incredibile, nisi inconstabilem illam grammaticam habeas? Idem, nisi fallor, in Keil (scilicet in volumine quodam seriei Grammatici Antiqui nomine) quopiam scribitur.
Why implausible, unless you feel A&G is unreliable? I remember this also from Keil (Grammatici Antiqui) in one of the volumes.

A&G = Allen & Greenough's New Latin Grammar
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.04.0001
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.

mwh
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Re: itaque, accent

Post by mwh » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:20 pm

Thanks for the resolution of A&G (yes, of course) and the link. Effect of enclitics on accentuation is tricky (scholars argue about it), and things are rather more complex than the A&G rules admit (though I see they do acknowledge scholarly dispute over e.g. exinde). When did itaque "and so = "therefore" get separated off from "and so = and in this way"? (Obviously by the time itaque starts being used postpositively.) That will have some bearing on the question - which, to repeat, is an interesting one, but not one to be definitively answered by reference to A&G.

adrianus
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Re: itaque, accent

Post by adrianus » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:33 pm

mwh wrote:That will have some bearing on the question - which, to repeat, is an interesting one, but not one to be definitively answered by reference to A&G.
Look in Keil, then, if you want a better answer. I suspect that was A&G's source. See Servius in Keil, IV: 427. There is no basis for claiming a distinction is implausible.
In illa volumina de Keil inquiras, si alium fontem (fontem A&G auctorum, ut suspicor) quaeras. Discrimen exstare inter modos sensuum sonandorum non improbabile est.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.

mwh
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Re: itaque, accent

Post by mwh » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:13 am

Yes I figured they got it from some ancient grammarian, and ought to have guessed Servius. No doubt the doctrine was true in his time, and perhaps in Vergil's. But how much earlier?, when did itaque split into two? It's a genuine question, which I'm too ignorant to answer. Plus of course Latin accentuation changed from Plautus to classical.
(I should add I haven't yet looked up the Servius--but thanks for the reference--nor modern phonological/prosodical treatments. And I'm happy to withdraw "implausible" in the interests of fostering a spirit of communal enquiry rather than confrontation. I'm already catching enough flak on the Greek boards. :wink: )

adrianus
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Re: itaque, accent

Post by adrianus » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:26 am

mwh wrote:Yes I figured they got it from some ancient grammarian, and ought to have guessed Servius.
I've read every volume of Keil and could not say as much because reading it once is only a start and there's so much I haven't grasped. Where does that insight come from? You are implying an expertise in Servius. Couldn't another have mentioned that detail? And there is so much Servius doesn't talk about.
Omne volumine de Keil lecto, ego tantum clamare non possum quod non satis est semel legisse et multum apud grammaticos antiquos malè capio. Unde oritur talis acuitas? Te peritum Servi esse denotas. Nonnè alius de illo vocabulo tractaverit. Et multa Servius praeterit.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.

mwh
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Re: itaque, accent

Post by mwh » Sat Oct 26, 2013 8:12 pm

You're perfectly right. I'm no sort of expert on Servius, nor have I read everything in Keil even once (and if I had, I might not admit to it :wink:). I've been known to confuse my Donati, and possibly my Servii (for can we be sure of authorship?). Please strike the sentence.

Fortunately it has no bearing on the question at issue, the historical bifurcation of itaque. That's what I'd be interested in knowing about, and I suspect the ancient Latin grammarians are not going to be of help there. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

(I'm little surprised at your omne, incidentally, but I don't presume to query it.)

adrianus
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Re: itaque, accent

Post by adrianus » Sun Oct 27, 2013 12:33 am

mwh wrote:..nor have I read everything in Keil even once (and if I had, I might not admit to it :wink:)
Non absumptum est tempus in legendo illius operis de Keil confactum.
Time spent reading Keil isn't wasted.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.

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