A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

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C. S. Bartholomew
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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:17 pm

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:
C. S. Bartholomew wrote: Rev. 7:17 ὅτι τὸ ἀρνίον τὸ ἀνὰ μέσον τοῦ θρόνου ποιμανεῖ αὐτοὺς καὶ ὁδηγήσει αὐτοὺς ἐπὶ ζωῆς πηγὰς ὑδάτων , καὶ ἐξαλείψει ὁ θεὸς πᾶν δάκρυον ἐκ τῶν ὀφθαλμῶν αὐτῶν.

The last example is tricky, wonder if πηγὰς was miss-construed as a fem.gen. sg. by the author, it looks like John intended a Hebrew construct chain like ἐκ τῆς πηγῆς τοῦ ὕδατος τῆς ζωῆς δωρεάν Rev. 21:6.

Rev. 21:6 καὶ εἶπέν μοι· γέγοναν. ἐγώ [εἰμι] τὸ ἄλφα καὶ τὸ ὦ, ἡ ἀρχὴ καὶ τὸ τέλος. ἐγὼ τῷ διψῶντι δώσω ἐκ τῆς πηγῆς τοῦ ὕδατος τῆς ζωῆς δωρεάν.
Moving in a different direction, in a number of minuscules ζωάς replaces ζωῆς at ἐπὶ ζωῆς πηγὰς ὑδάτων Rev. 7:17 . Apparently some scribe had problem with a split genitive construction. This doesn't mean that scribe would of had a problem with ἐπὶ ζωῆς πηγὰς without ὑδάτων. Apparently, given the silence of grammars on this point, the introduction of a genitive between a prep + dat, or prep + acc construction doesn't raise any problem.
If you spend enough time you will eventually find a discussion of this. Cooper (vol. 1, p198, 47.9.19) addresses the placement of a genitive construed with a substantive between a preposition and it's case. Cooper describes this phenomenon as sporadic, but He gives a whole page of examples from Thucydides and Xenophon.
Thucydides
Book 1, chapter 1, section 3, line 3

καὶ τὸ ἄλλο Ἑλληνικὸν ὁρῶν ξυνιστάμενον πρὸς ἑκατέρους,
τὸ μὲν εὐθύς, τὸ δὲ καὶ διανοούμενον. κίνησις γὰρ αὕτη
μεγίστη δὴ τοῖς Ἕλλησιν ἐγένετο καὶ μέρει τινὶ τῶν βαρ-
βάρων, ὡς δὲ εἰπεῖν καὶ ἐπὶ πλεῖστον ἀνθρώπων. τὰ γὰρ
πρὸ αὐτῶν καὶ τὰ ἔτι παλαίτερα σαφῶς μὲν εὑρεῖν διὰ
χρόνου πλῆθος
ἀδύνατα ἦν, ἐκ δὲ τεκμηρίων ὧν ἐπὶ μακρό-
τατον σκοποῦντί μοι πιστεῦσαι ξυμβαίνει οὐ μεγάλα νομίζω
γενέσθαι οὔτε κατὰ τοὺς πολέμους οὔτε ἐς τὰ ἄλλα. φαί-
Thucydides
Book 1, chapter 12, section 3, line 1

κατεσχηκότος· ἐπεὶ καὶ μετὰ τὰ Τρωικὰ ἡ Ἑλλὰς ἔτι μετ-
ανίστατό τε καὶ κατῳκίζετο, ὥστε μὴ ἡσυχάσασαν αὐξηθῆναι.
ἥ τε γὰρ ἀναχώρησις τῶν Ἑλλήνων ἐξ Ἰλίου χρονία γενο-
μένη πολλὰ ἐνεόχμωσε, καὶ στάσεις ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν ὡς
ἐπὶ πολὺ ἐγίγνοντο, ἀφ' ὧν ἐκπίπτοντες τὰς πόλεις ἔκτιζον.
Βοιωτοί τε γὰρ οἱ νῦν ἑξηκοστῷ ἔτει μετὰ Ἰλίου ἅλωσιν ἐξ
Ἄρνης ἀναστάντες ὑπὸ Θεσσαλῶν τὴν νῦν μὲν Βοιωτίαν,
πρότερον δὲ Καδμηίδα γῆν καλουμένην ᾤκισαν (ἦν δὲ αὐτῶν
καὶ ἀποδασμὸς πρότερον ἐν τῇ γῇ ταύτῃ, ἀφ' ὧν καὶ ἐς
Ἴλιον ἐστράτευσαν), Δωριῆς τε ὀγδοηκοστῷ ἔτει ξὺν Ἡρα-
κλείδαις Πελοπόννησον ἔσχον. μόλις τε ἐν πολλῷ χρόνῳ
Xenophon Hist., Hellenica
Book 2, chapter 1, section 21, line 2

πάντα ἀφῆκε Λύσανδρος. οἱ δ' Ἀθηναῖοι κατὰ πόδας
πλέοντες ὡρμίσαντο τῆς Χερρονήσου ἐν Ἐλαιοῦντι ναυσὶν
ὀγδοήκοντα καὶ ἑκατόν. ἐνταῦθα δὴ ἀριστοποιουμένοις
αὐτοῖς ἀγγέλλεται τὰ περὶ Λάμψακον, καὶ εὐθὺς ἀνήχθησαν
εἰς Σηστόν. ἐκεῖθεν δ' εὐθὺς ἐπισιτισάμενοι ἔπλευσαν
εἰς Αἰγὸς ποταμοὺς ἀντίον τῆς Λαμψάκου· διεῖχε δ' ὁ
Ἑλλήσποντος ταύτῃ σταδίους ὡς πεντεκαίδεκα. ἐνταῦθα
δὴ ἐδειπνοποιοῦντο. Λύσανδρος δὲ τῇ ἐπιούσῃ νυκτί, ἐπεὶ
ὄρθρος ἦν, ἐσήμηνεν εἰς τὰς ναῦς ἀριστοποιησαμένους
εἰσβαίνειν, πάντα δὲ παρασκευασάμενος ὡς εἰς ναυμαχίαν
καὶ τὰ παραβλήματα παραβάλλων, προεῖπεν ὡς μηδεὶς
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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Sat Mar 30, 2013 6:40 pm

A.Ag 1291-1294

Ἅιδου πύλας δὲ τάσδ’ ἐγὼ προσεννέπω·
ἐπεύχομαι δὲ καιρίας πληγῆς τυχεῖν,
ὡς ἀσφάδαστος, αἱμάτων εὐθνησίμων
ἀπορρυέντων, ὄμμα συμβάλω τόδε.

I address these gates as the gates of Hades. LCL

This door I greet as the gates of Death. H. W. Smyth
Smyth's gates of Death sounds like Job LXX

Job 38:17 ἀνοίγονται δέ σοι φόβῳ πύλαι θανάτου,
πυλωροὶ δὲ ᾅδου ἰδόντες σε ἔπτηξαν;

Gates of Hades/Hell first(??) found in Homer
Homerus Epic., Ilias
Book 5, line 646

ἓξ οἴῃς σὺν νηυσὶ καὶ ἀνδράσι παυροτέροισιν
Ἰλίου ἐξαλάπαξε πόλιν, χήρωσε δ' ἀγυιάς·
σοὶ δὲ κακὸς μὲν θυμός, ἀποφθινύθουσι δὲ λαοί.
οὐδέ τί σε Τρώεσσιν ὀΐομαι ἄλκαρ ἔσεσθαι
ἐλθόντ' ἐκ Λυκίης, οὐδ' εἰ μάλα καρτερός ἐσσι,
ἀλλ' ὑπ' ἐμοὶ δμηθέντα πύλας Ἀΐδαο περήσειν.
found also in Euripides:
Euripides Trag., Hippolytus
Line 57

κῶμος λέλακεν, Ἄρτεμιν τιμῶν θεὰν
ὕμνοισιν· οὐ γὰρ οἶδ' ἀνεωιγμένας πύλας
Ἅιδου
, φάος δὲ λοίσθιον βλέπων τόδε.
Found in Gospel of Matthew:
Matt. 16:18 κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.
Matthew probably picked it up from the LXX where it is found several times:
3Mac. 5:51 ἀνεβόησαν φωνῇ μεγάλῃ σφόδρα τὸν τῆς ἁπάσης δυνάμεως δυνάστην ἱκετεύοντες οἰκτῖραι μετὰ ἐπιφανείας αὐτοὺς ἤδη πρὸς πύλαις ᾅδου καθεστῶτας.

Ode. 11:10 Ἐγὼ εἶπα Ἐν τῷ ὕψει τῶν ἡμερῶν μου
πορεύσομαι ἐν πύλαις ᾅδου,
καταλείψω τὰ ἔτη τὰ ἐπίλοιπα.

Job 38:17 ἀνοίγονται δέ σοι φόβῳ πύλαι θανάτου,
πυλωροὶ δὲ ᾅδου ἰδόντες σε ἔπτηξαν;

Wis. 16:13 σὺ γὰρ ζωῆς καὶ θανάτου ἐξουσίαν ἔχεις
καὶ κατάγεις εἰς πύλας ᾅδου καὶ ἀνάγεις·

Sol. 16:2 παρ᾿ ὀλίγον ἐξεχύθη ἡ ψυχή μου εἰς θάνατον
σύνεγγυς πυλῶν ᾅδου μετὰ ἁμαρτωλοῦ

Is. 38:10 Ἐγὼ εἶπα Ἐν τῷ ὕψει τῶν ἡμερῶν μου ἐν πύλαις ᾅδου καταλείψω τὰ ἔτη τὰ ἐπίλοιπα.
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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:55 pm

Χορός
1295
ὦ πολλὰ μὲν τάλαινα, πολλὰ δ’ αὖ σοφὴ
γύναι, μακρὰν ἔτεινας. εἰ δ’ ἐτητύμως
μόρον τὸν αὑτῆς οἶσθα, πῶς θεηλάτου
βοὸς δίκην πρὸς βωμὸν εὐτόλμως πατεῖς;

Chorus
[1295] O woman, pitiful exceedingly and exceeding wise, long has been your speech. But if, in truth, you have knowledge of your own death, how can you step with calm courage to the altar like an ox, driven by the god?

— H. W Smyth
The referent of μακρὰν ἔτεινας isn't perfectly obvious, the 2nd pers. sg. ἔτεινας suggests Cassandra prolongs something and her speech is the only thing handy to fill the void. Comparing her to an Ox being driven to the alter for slaughter is not very flattering. The only point of comparison is her willingness to go without an attempt to escape. But to OX doesn't know and she knows, and she isn't going quietly, so in several respects the the comparison falls apart.

Once again we see δίκην used adverbially, after the manner of an OX ...

The sacrifice motif in Aeschylus and Good Friday:

Κασάνδρα prediction of her own death and the sacrificial imagery comes at a time when I should be reading the gospels. I had a good solid hour of gospel reading while waiting in the examination room to see my primary MD on Wednesday afternoon. She was running an hour late and I knew this would happen so I took along my NA26 and had a very vivid encounter with the Gospel of John, the wording was plain and direct, shockingly so, after months of wading through the seemingly endless ambiguities of Aeschylus.
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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by Paul Derouda » Sun Mar 31, 2013 12:30 am

I looked through the instances of "gates" of Hades in Homer. Many times reading Homer it has struck me strange why talk about the gates of Hades, when you could talk about Hades itself. Why say "I hate him like the gates of Hades/death", when you could say "I hate him like death"? Is "gates of death" just a periphrasis for death, or does it include some other idea, like the "transition to death" or even "moment of death"?

In Il. 23.71 the idea is simply, I think, that Patroclus is in some kind of limbo and wants to get buried quickly to get on to Hades proper. But could this support an idea that the limbo before the gates of Hades in Homer are even worse Hades itself, and that's the reason they're referring to the gates of Hades?

An interesting comparison is the gates of Dream - with those, you can either just be "at" the gates of Dream (I wonder if Penelope is sleeping only lightly at Od. 4.808) or go through them.

In the passage of Agamemnon the gates of Hades don't seem to me to mean anything very elaborate, though.

Il. 9.312-
ἐχθρὸς γάρ μοι κεῖνος ὁμῶς Ἀΐδαο πύλῃσιν
ὅς χ' ἕτερον μὲν κεύθῃ ἐνὶ φρεσίν, ἄλλο δὲ εἴπῃ.

(Il. 9.312=OD.14.156)

Il 23.71
θάπτέ με ὅττι τάχιστα πύλας Ἀΐδαο περήσω.

OD.4.808
τὴν δ' ἠμείβετ' ἔπειτα περίφρων Πηνελόπεια,
ἡδὺ μάλα κνώσσουσ' ἐν ὀνειρείῃσι πύλῃσιν

OD.19.562
δοιαὶ γάρ τε πύλαι ἀμενηνῶν εἰσὶν ὀνείρων:
αἱ μὲν γὰρ κεράεσσι τετεύχαται, αἱ δ' ἐλέφαντι:
τῶν οἳ μέν κ' ἔλθωσι διὰ πριστοῦ ἐλέφαντος,
οἵ ῥ' ἐλεφαίρονται, ἔπε' ἀκράαντα φέροντες:
οἱ δὲ διὰ ξεστῶν κεράων ἔλθωσι θύραζε,
οἵ ῥ' ἔτυμα κραίνουσι, βροτῶν ὅτε κέν τις ἴδηται.

Another thing I've thought to be a bit analogous in Homer is the idea of "the threshold of old age", γήραος οὐδός, which actually means old age itself.

Btw, I didn't remember that the NT actually uses the word "Hades". The meaning of the word has of course shifted. In Homer, it actually usually doesn't mean the place but the person. The beginning of the Iliad really means "hurled to [the god] Hades' [house] many ghosts of heroes". I would give a reference for this if I remembered one...

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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by Paul Derouda » Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:45 am

I don't know a word of Hebrew. For those passages of the LXX where a Hebrew equivalent exists, is there a difference with the expression "gates of hades" compared to the Greek version?

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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by NateD26 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:08 pm

Job 38:17

יז הֲנִגְלוּ לְךָ, שַׁעֲרֵי-מָוֶת; וְשַׁעֲרֵי צַלְמָוֶת תִּרְאֶה.

The distinction was a bit unclear to me, until I've read the Aramaic translation which
reads the second part as the gates of hell itself:

יז אפשר דאתגליאו לך מעלני מותא ומעלני טולא מותא דגהנם תחמי.

All the commentators I've read though seem to take them as phrases signifying the same
thing. Rashi read both of them as referring to Hell, and another read both as referring to the grave.
I've never liked this explanation of identical semantic parallelism, because it's too easy. There must have
been a reason for this repetition and there must have been in the scribes minds two distinct
terms for death and hell.

Our Hebrew צ is the Aramaic ט, and it seems Hell is always the shadow of death in the Bible.
Nate.

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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:31 pm

NateD26 wrote:Job 38:17

יז הֲנִגְלוּ לְךָ, שַׁעֲרֵי-מָוֶת; וְשַׁעֲרֵי צַלְמָוֶת תִּרְאֶה.

The distinction was a bit unclear to me, until I've read the Aramaic translation which
reads the second part as the gates of hell itself:

יז אפשר דאתגליאו לך מעלני מותא ומעלני טולא מותא דגהנם תחמי.

All the commentators I've read though seem to take them as phrases signifying the same
thing. Rashi read both of them as referring to Hell, and another read both as referring to the grave.
I've never liked this explanation of identical semantic parallelism, because it's too easy. There must have
been a reason for this repetition and there must have been in the scribes minds two distinct
terms for death and hell.

Our Hebrew צ is the Aramaic ט, and it seems Hell is always the shadow of death in the Bible.
Nate,
RE: identical semantic parallelism

I agree, it is too easy.I checked the commentaries of E. Dhorme (1926) and F. I. Andersen, like the commentaries you mention they make no distinction. The blending two ideas, a place and a personal presence seems to be no problem for the ancient Greeks. Dhorme suggests someting similar for Job 38:17. One problem I have with this, the argument for synonymous parallelism in Job 38:17 assumes that MOT can refer to the place of the dead. The texts that are cited to support this show MOT in a parallel construction with Sheol. This seems to be circular reasoning. Are there any independent (not parallel) cases where MOT is unambiguously referring to the place of the dead? MOT is rendered with θάνᾰτος in Job 38:17. θάνᾰτος is not a place. Sheol is rendered ᾅδης which is a place.
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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by NateD26 » Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:30 pm

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:Nate,
RE: identical semantic parallelism

I agree, it is too easy.I checked the commentaries of E. Dhorme (1926) and F. I. Andersen, like the commentaries you mention they make no distinction. The blending two ideas, a place and a personal presence seems to be no problem for the ancient Greeks. Dhorme suggests someting similar for Job 38:17. One problem I have with this, the argument for synonymous parallelism in Job 38:17 assumes that MOT can refer to the place of the dead. The texts that are cited to support this show MOT in a parallel construction with Sheol. This seems to be circular reasoning. Are there any independent (not parallel) cases where MOT is unambiguously referring to the place of the dead? MOT is rendered with θάνᾰτος in Job 38:17. θάνᾰτος is not a place. Sheol is rendered ᾅδης which is a place.
I'm not sure whether there are isolated references of MOT referring to Sheol, but this Wikipedia
article has a couple of references where MOT and Sheol are paralleled and seem at least to
refer to the actual place where the dead go after death. The article mentions this Job verse as
well, and also takes the view that both MOT and TSALMOT[1] are synonyms for Sheol.

Proverbs 5, 5
רַגְלֶיהָ יֹרְדוֹת מָוֶת, שְׁאוֹל צְעָדֶיהָ יִתְמֹכוּ

NSRV doesn't have any English equivalent for Sheol:
5 Her feet go down to death;
her steps follow the path to Sheol.

Hosea 13, 14
מִיַּד שְׁאוֹל אֶפְדֵּם – מִמָּוֶת אֶגְאָלֵם

The same here in NSRV. The upper-cap Death suggests they take the view of a personification --
perhaps Samael, the angel of death in Judaism?

14 Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol?
Shall I redeem them from Death?

[1] Apparrently, Tsalmavet/Tsalmot is not a combination of TSEL (shadow) and MOT (death)
but was initially from the root צ-ל-מ and referred to a place of darkness. (Wiki Hebrew dictionary)
Nate.

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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:15 pm

Paul Derouda wrote: Btw, I didn't remember that the NT actually uses the word "Hades". The meaning of the word has of course shifted. In Homer, it actually usually doesn't mean the place but the person. The beginning of the Iliad really means "hurled to [the god] Hades' [house] many ghosts of heroes". I would give a reference for this if I remembered one...
Paul,

R. Lattimore's famous opening of the Iliad
Sing, goddess, the anger of Peleus’ son Achilleus
and its devastation, which put pains thousandfold upon the Achaians,
hurled in their multitudes to the house of Hades strong souls
of heroes, but gave their bodies to be the delicate feasting
of dogs, of all birds, and the will of Zeus was accomplished
since that time when first there stood in division of conflict
Atreus’ son the lord of men and brilliant Achilleus. . .
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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:26 pm

NateD26 wrote: I'm not sure whether there are isolated references of MOT referring to Sheol, but this Wikipedia
article has a couple of references where MOT and Sheol are paralleled and seem at least to
refer to the actual place where the dead go after death. The article mentions this Job verse as
well, and also takes the view that both MOT and TSALMOT[1] are synonyms for Sheol.

Proverbs 5, 5
רַגְלֶיהָ יֹרְדוֹת מָוֶת, שְׁאוֹל צְעָדֶיהָ יִתְמֹכוּ

NSRV doesn't have any English equivalent for Sheol:
5 Her feet go down to death;
her steps follow the path to Sheol.

Hosea 13, 14
מִיַּד שְׁאוֹל אֶפְדֵּם – מִמָּוֶת אֶגְאָלֵם

The same here in NSRV. The upper-cap Death suggests they take the view of a personification --
perhaps Samael, the angel of death in Judaism?

14 Shall I ransom them from the power of Sheol?
Shall I redeem them from Death?

[1] Apparrently, Tsalmavet/Tsalmot is not a combination of TSEL (shadow) and MOT (death)
but was initially from the root צ-ל-מ and referred to a place of darkness. (Wiki Hebrew dictionary)
Nate,

I looked at these in the LXX. Proverbs is quite different in Greek version.

Prov. 5:5 τῆς γὰρ ἀφροσύνης οἱ πόδες κατάγουσιν
τοὺς χρωμένους αὐτῇ μετὰ θανάτου εἰς τὸν ᾅδην,
τὰ δὲ ἴχνη αὐτῆς οὐκ ἐρείδεται·

Here is E. Tov's parallel version, -+15 is an addition not found in Hebrew text.
Proverbs 5:5
רגל/יה τῆς γὰρ ἀφροσύνης ~11 οἱ πόδες
ירדות κατάγουσιν
--+15 τοὺς χρωμένους
--+15 αὐτῇ
--+15 μετὰ
מות θανάτου
{...}10 εἰς
שׁאול {..pεἰς}22 τὸν ᾅδην
צעד/יה τὰ δὲ ἴχνη αὐτῆς
--+15 οὐκ
יתמכו ἐρείδεται
I am not totally convinced that MOT where it is rendered θανάτου means a place according to the translator (not the original author). With all the metaphors and other figurative language it is somewhat difficult to nail down a referent but I think that the translator would have chosen a different word from θανάτου to indicate travel to the land of the dead. Could be wrong of course.
Last edited by C. S. Bartholomew on Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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