A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

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C. S. Bartholomew
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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:44 pm

Χορός
1140
φρενομανής τις εἶ θεοφόρητος, ἀμ-
φὶ δ’ αὑτᾶς θροεῖς
νόμον ἄνομον, οἷά τις ξουθὰ
ἀκόρετος βοᾶς, φεῦ, ταλαίναις φρεσίν
Ἴτυν Ἴτυν στένουσ’ ἀμφιθαλῆ κακοῖς
ἀηδὼν βίον.
1146
Κασάνδρα
ἰὼ ἰὼ λιγείας μόρον ἀηδόνος·
περέβαλον γάρ οἱ πτεροφόρον δέμας
θεοὶ γλυκύν τ’ αἰῶνα κλαυμάτων ἄτερ·
ἐμοὶ δὲ μίμνει σχισμὸς ἀμφήκει δορί.

Page's argument for fiddling with the text seems to me very unconvincing. A circular argument where he explains βίον on line 1145 with reference to a conjectural βίος on 1146. A little too clever. Page finds the accusative case of βίον on 1146 impossible because it is part of an exclamation. In trying to evaluate this I made an attempt to parse:

1143b ... οἷά τις ξουθὰ
ἀκόρετος βοᾶς, φεῦ, ταλαίναις φρεσίν
Ἴτυν Ἴτυν στένουσ’ ἀμφιθαλῆ κακοῖς
ἀηδὼν βίον.

A: ... οἷά τις ξουθὰ ... ἀηδὼν such as some trilling song-bird (nightingale)

B: ἀκόρετος ... στένουσ’ unending lament

C: ἀμφιθαλῆ κακοῖς ... βίον life abounding with evil

C is the difficult part. I am still thinking about it.
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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:16 pm

C. S. Bartholomew wrote: 1143b ... οἷά τις ξουθὰ
ἀκόρετος βοᾶς, φεῦ, ταλαίναις φρεσίν
Ἴτυν Ἴτυν στένουσ’ ἀμφιθαλῆ κακοῖς
ἀηδὼν βίον.

A: ... οἷά τις ξουθὰ ... ἀηδὼν such as some trilling song-bird (nightingale)

B: ἀκόρετος ... στένουσ’ unending lament

C: ἀμφιθαλῆ κακοῖς ... βίον life abounding with evil
I now prefer B:
ξουθὰ ἀκόρετος ceaseless trilling

I have managed to slog through to line 1155. Not an easy project.

An aside, I've been reading for the second time The Secret History pub. 1992 a novel by a woman who goes by Donna Tartt (pen name?) and has two published novels (a third pending) to her name after 30 years of writing. I read this a long time ago and forgot the plot. It's about some liberal arts college in Vermont where there is tiny classical greek cult led by a prof who earns no salary and has only 5 or 6 students who study with this professor only, take no classes from anyone else. A classic cult scenario. (pun accidental) This was written in the 1980s so it probably sounds a little dated culturally. No cellphones, the students don't carry laptops. They all have well worn copies of L&S intermediate. Several of them are rich white upper class prep-school valedictorians. The main character is the son of a gas station owner from Calif. so there is some social class tension. Ancient Greek is very central to the plot. If you haven't read it you should.

It would be interesting to know more about "Donna Tartt" she seems to have gone underground to avoid her admirers. Not a bad plan if you want to write more novels.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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Paul Derouda
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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by Paul Derouda » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:55 pm

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:
C. S. Bartholomew wrote: 1143b ... οἷά τις ξουθὰ
ἀκόρετος βοᾶς, φεῦ, ταλαίναις φρεσίν
Ἴτυν Ἴτυν στένουσ’ ἀμφιθαλῆ κακοῖς
ἀηδὼν βίον.

A: ... οἷά τις ξουθὰ ... ἀηδὼν such as some trilling song-bird (nightingale)

B: ἀκόρετος ... στένουσ’ unending lament

C: ἀμφιθαλῆ κακοῖς ... βίον life abounding with evil
I now prefer B:
ξουθὰ ἀκόρετος ceaseless trilling
I would absolutely take ἀκόρετος βοᾶς together, "unsatisfied with crying", i.e. "who never stops crying". This together with ξουθὰ (whatever it means) is in apposition to ἀηδὼν (here apparently nightingale). ταλαίναις φρεσίν means something like "with a suffering soul".

"Like a ξουθὰ nightingale who never stops crying, with a suffering soul lamenting "Itys, Itys" for a life abounding with evil."

As for the emendation here... I think here again the difficulty Page has found here is real, but as often, the probability that he has found the right solution can't be very high. I do think his solution makes better sense than the MSS, but that doesn't mean it's the correct one.

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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by Paul Derouda » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:03 pm

Paul Derouda wrote:My Loeb has καὶ μὴν. So we have three possibilies at least.

Denniston, Greek particles:
"ἦ μὴν introduces a strong and confident asseveration, being used both in direct and in indirect speech. It is most frequently employed in oaths and pledges: the wider use is very rare in prose and entirely absent from orators." A lot of examples follow.

There's a much longer discussion on καὶ μὴν, consisting mostly of a great number of examples; this seems to be much more frequent than ἦ μὴν. I would hazard that ἦ μὴν is the stronger and more marked (being rarer) of the two, but otherwise there isn't so much difference in meaning at least in the present passage.
Just found out that West much prefers καὶ μὴν here; ἦ μὴν is much too strong according to him, "as if on oath".

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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by Paul Derouda » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:20 pm

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:An aside, I've been reading for the second time The Secret History pub. 1992 a novel by a woman who goes by Donna Tartt (pen name?) and has two published novels (a third pending) to her name after 30 years of writing. I read this a long time ago and forgot the plot. It's about some liberal arts college in Vermont where there is tiny classical greek cult led by a prof who earns no salary and has only 5 or 6 students who study with this professor only, take no classes from anyone else. A classic cult scenario. (pun accidental) This was written in the 1980s so it probably sounds a little dated culturally. No cellphones, the students don't carry laptops. They all have well worn copies of L&S intermediate. Several of them are rich white upper class prep-school valedictorians. The main character is the son of a gas station owner from Calif. so there is some social class tension. Ancient Greek is very central to the plot. If you haven't read it you should.

It would be interesting to know more about "Donna Tartt" she seems to have gone underground to avoid her admirers. Not a bad plan if you want to write more novels.
OK, I'll check that out!

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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:22 pm

1156
Κασάνδρα
ἰὼ γάμοι γάμοι Πάριδος ὀλέθριοι φίλων.
ἰὼ Σκαμάνδρου πάτριον ποτόν.
τότε μὲν ἀμφὶ σὰς ἀϊόνας τάλαιν’
ἠνυτόμαν τροφαῖς·
1160
νῦν δ’ ἀμφὶ Κωκυτόν τε κἀχερουσίους
ὄχθας ἔοικα θεσπιῳδήσειν τάχα.

τάλαιν’ seems out of place, perhaps it is in apposition to the subject of ἠνυτόμαν. But that involves a conflict with the contrast between Cassandra's previous fate along the banks Σκαμάνδρου where she made here way being nourished by the river metaphorically which sounds like a positive experience and her future fate near the rivers of Hades. This contrast doesn't work if τάλαιν’ wretched is a description of her condition in her former world along the banks Σκαμάνδρου.

An aside:

If this were Hebrew verse one might expect some formal parallelism between:

τότε μὲν ἀμφὶ ...

νῦν δ’ ἀμφὶ ...

But this isn't Hebrew verse.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by NateD26 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:24 pm

C. S. Bartholomew wrote:An aside:

If this were Hebrew verse one might expect some formal parallelism between:

τότε μὲν ἀμφὶ ...

νῦν δ’ ἀμφὶ ...

But this isn't Hebrew verse.
I'm intrigued. Could you please elaborate? :)
Nate.

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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:31 pm

NateD26 wrote:
C. S. Bartholomew wrote:An aside:

If this were Hebrew verse one might expect some formal parallelism between:

τότε μὲν ἀμφὶ ...

νῦν δ’ ἀμφὶ ...

But this isn't Hebrew verse.
I'm intrigued. Could you please elaborate? :)
Nate,

There are suggestions of parallelism here, one river representing Cassandra's homeland and a blessed state of being daughter of King Priam contrasted with two rivers from Hades where Cassandra being a seer knows she is about to die. In favor of parallelism, in both places the land adjacent to the rivers is mentioned ἀϊόνας ὄχθας. The syntax at beginning of each part
τότε μὲν ἀμφὶ ... νῦν δ’ ἀμφὶ ... hints at parallelism but the rest of protasis is significantly different from the apodosis. In the protasis one river is reference by a possessive pronoun σὰς ἀϊόνας. In the apodosis two rivers are reference by name. The contrast between the two elements does not seem to be one of a blessed state as a daughter of King Priam at Troy vs. a cursed state in Hades, since the odd inclusion of τάλαιν’ in the first state is a problem for that reading.

The poetic books of the Hebrew Bible have many different kinds of parallel structures both formal and semantic. This passage in Agamemnon looks like semantic contrastive parallelism but τάλαιν’ raises a question about the point of semantic contrast.

1156
Κασάνδρα
ἰὼ γάμοι γάμοι Πάριδος ὀλέθριοι φίλων.
ἰὼ Σκαμάνδρου πάτριον ποτόν.
τότε μὲν ἀμφὶ σὰς ἀϊόνας τάλαιν’
ἠνυτόμαν τροφαῖς·
1160
νῦν δ’ ἀμφὶ Κωκυτόν τε κἀχερουσίους
ὄχθας ἔοικα θεσπιῳδήσειν τάχα.
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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:17 pm

Nate,

A sample of something closer to formal parallelism in Sophocles OC 610-611:
(example from Helma Dik, Word Order in Greek Tragic Dialogue OUP, 2007).

Οἰδίπους

ὦ φίλτατ᾽ Αἰγέως παῖ, μόνοις οὐ γίγνεται
θεοῖσι γῆρας οὐδὲ κατθανεῖν ποτε.
τὰ δ᾽ ἄλλα συγχεῖ πάνθ᾽ ὁ παγκρατὴς χρόνος.
610
φθίνει μὲν ἰσχὺς γῆς, φθίνει δὲ σώματος,
θνῄσκει δὲ πίστις, βλαστάνει δ᾽ ἀπιστία,
καὶ πνεῦμα ταὐτὸν οὔποτ᾽ οὔτ᾽ ἐν ἀνδράσιν
φίλοις βέβηκεν οὔτε πρὸς πόλιν πόλει.

Sophocles OC 610-611

φθίνει μὲν ἰσχὺς γῆς, φθίνει δὲ σώματος,
θνῄσκει δὲ πίστις, βλαστάνει δ᾽ ἀπιστία,

strength of the earth decays, [strength] of the body fails
loyalty dies and disloyalty is born

a rich and complex parallelism in Isaiah 40:6-9

6 φωνὴ λέγοντος Βόησον·
καὶ εἶπα Τί βοήσω;
Πᾶσα σὰρξ χόρτος,
καὶ πᾶσα δόξα ἀνθρώπου ὡς ἄνθος χόρτου·
7 ἐξηράνθη ὁ χόρτος, καὶ τὸ ἄνθος ἐξέπεσεν,
8 τὸ δὲ ῥῆμα τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.
9 ἐπ᾿ ὄρος ὑψηλὸν ἀνάβηθι,
ὁ εὐαγγελιζόμενος Σιων·
ὕψωσον τῇ ἰσχύι τὴν φωνήν σου,
ὁ εὐαγγελιζόμενος Ιερουσαλημ·
ὑψώσατε, μὴ φοβεῖσθε·
εἰπὸν ταῖς πόλεσιν Ιουδα
Ἰδοὺ ὁ θεὸς ὑμῶν.

NRSV (from Hebrew text)
Is. 40:6    A voice says, “Cry out!”
And I said, “What shall I cry?”
All people are grass,
their constancy is like the flower of the field.
7 The grass withers, the flower fades,
when the breath of the LORD blows upon it;
surely the people are grass.
8 The grass withers, the flower fades;
but the word of our God will stand forever.
9 Get you up to a high mountain,
O Zion, herald of good tidings;
lift up your voice with strength,
O Jerusalem, herald of good tidings,
lift it up, do not fear;
say to the cities of Judah,
“Here is your God!”

S.El. 1070-71 Jan C. Kamerbeek finds formal parallelism between τὰ ... πρὸς τέκνων and τὰ ... ἐκ δόμων but that is IMO grabbing at straws. I don't see much evidence for formal parallelism here beyond these two similar constituents. The rest of it isn't parallel.

Χορός
1070
ὅτι σφὶν ἤδη τὰ μὲν ἐκ δόμων νοσεῖ δή, τὰ δὲ πρὸς τέκνων διπλῆ
φύλοπις οὐκέτ’ ἐξισοῦται φιλοτασίῳ διαί-
τᾳ· πρόδοτος δὲ μόνα σαλεύει

R.C. Jebb trans.
Chorus
[1070] Tell them the affairs of their house, how it is now diseased; how among his children, double-sided strife has overwhelmed their loving manner. [1075]
a curios parallel translation
Chorus:
Tell them below, voices, tell them that their house, the house of Agamemnon, is ill!
Chorus:
Tell them below, voices, tell them that a battle splits asunder their children!
Chorus:
Tell them below, voices, that their hearts do not lie in harmony!
Chorus:
Tell them Elektra cries on alone and betrayed in a sea of wails!

Translated by
George Theodoridis
©2006
You really need some more context to sort this out. Anyone who thinks Agamemenon is difficult to read should take some time to try and figure this out. :(

S.El. 1066
Χορός

ὦ χθονία βροτοῖσι φάμα, κατά μοι βόασον οἰκτρὰν
ὄπα τοῖς ἔνερθ’ Ἀτρείδαις, ἀχόρευτα φέρουσ’
ὀνείδη·
1070
ὅτι σφὶν ἤδη τὰ μὲν ἐκ δόμων νοσεῖ δή, τὰ δὲ πρὸς τέκνων διπλῆ
φύλοπις οὐκέτ’ ἐξισοῦται φιλοτασίῳ διαί-
τᾳ· πρόδοτος δὲ μόνα σαλεύει
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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Re: A.Ag Κασάνδρα scene 1072-1330

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:38 pm

Χορός
τί τόδε τορὸν ἄγαν ἔπος ἐφημίσω;
νεόγονος ἂν ἀΐων μάθοι.
πέπληγμαι δ’ ὑπαὶ δάκει φοινίῳ
1165
δυσαλγεῖ τύχᾳ μινυρὰ κακὰ θρεομένας,
θραύματ’ ἐμοὶ κλύειν.

πέπληγμαι δ’ὑπαὶ δάκει φοινίῳ δυσαλγεῖ τύχᾳ

ὑπό with a dative denoting agency, G. Cooper (vol 4, 2:68.44.2.A, p.2835) where as R-T (p161 n. for line 892-3) call it an instrumental dative. The distinction isn't very significant. Fate can be personified and thus function as a personal agent.

θρεομένας a genitive absolute according to R-T.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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