Plb. 6.3: viva ὅσα!

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John W.
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Re: Plb. 6.3

Post by John W. » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:01 am

PS - don't we have a similar idiom in English - 'as many as were left escaped'?

John

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pster
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Re: Plb. 6.3

Post by pster » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:06 pm

Thanks John. I am working on your example.

In the meantime, here are my criteria for a full understanding of a use of osos which I present with the reasons behind said criteria:

osos is an adjective. So:

1) One must be able to say what noun it is modifying, or one must say that it is being used substantively.

osos is a relative. As such, it must be Janus faced, looking "back" to some antecedent and "forward" to some what I'll call "relative content", "RC" for short. I put "back" and "forward" in scare quotes because sometimes the antecedent comes after. Moreover, the antecedent is strictly speaking adjectival.

2) One must be able to identify an adjectival antecedent.

3) One must be able to identify the RC.

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Here's an English example:

I bought him some beers, as many beers as he wanted.

"osos____" is equivalent to "as many____as".

1) Our relative adjective is modifying the second "beers".

2) The adjectival antecedent is "some".

3) And the RC is roughly "he wanted ____ beers "

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When I try and apply these criteria, criteria that come from our basic understandings of what it is to be an adjective, a relative, and you can even throw in the process of substantialization of adjectives, I get lost.

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Re: Plb. 6.3

Post by pster » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:19 pm

In the Thucydides example, I guess we would have to say:

1) Our relative adjective is modifying an implied "men" directly following it, or it has itself been substaintialized. Numbers slip back and forth between nouns and adjectives more than any other kind of word.

2) The adjectival antecedent is an implied (adjectival) number modifying λοιποὶ. Note that the antecedent follows.

3) And the RC is roughly "____(men) μὴ διεφθάρησαν ἢ αὐτίκα ἐν χερσὶν ἢ ὑπὸ τῆς Χαλκιδικῆς ἵππου καὶ τῶν πελταστῶν".

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Re: Plb. 6.3

Post by pster » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:24 pm

So for Thucydides, we see that several things have to be filled in by hand so to speak. But the Polybius example is less congenial still. And I am still at a loss.

It even seems conceivable that what are being linked are the rises and falls.

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Re: Plb. 6.3

Post by pster » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:36 pm

There is even an odd competition going on between the number referred to by ὅσα and the number referred to by πολλάκις.

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Re: Plb. 6.3

Post by pster » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:57 pm

For the brave:

Take the ὅσα challenge!

Find the appropriate entry for the Polybius on the LSJ page!

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o(%2Fsoi&la=greek&can=o(%2Fsoi0&prior=o)/rh&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0199:book=5:chapter=10&i=1#lexicon

Better link:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon

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pster
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Re: Plb. 6.3

Post by pster » Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:06 pm

To sharpen things, I'm going to tentatively claim that the use here is adverbial.

Of the Greek republics, (which) as often as they have risen, (so often) have they fallen, it happens that the narritive be easy....

Can I have an implied subordinating "which" like that? Or perhaps some kind of implied conjunction can be invoked?? "Since as often..."

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Re: Plb. 6.3

Post by pster » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:32 pm

At Smyth 2497b, we see some temporal uses, but I don't understand what is elliptical about them.

John W.
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Re: Plb. 6.3

Post by John W. » Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:57 pm

pster wrote:For the brave:

Take the ὅσα challenge!

Find the appropriate entry for the Polybius on the LSJ page!

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=o(%2Fsoi&la=greek&can=o(%2Fsoi0&prior=o)/rh&d=Perseus:text:1999.01.0199:book=5:chapter=10&i=1#lexicon

Better link:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon
Well, I'd have said that it falls under the first big batch of entries (A), where one of the translations is 'as many as'; in the middle of this batch LSJ comments: 'freq. without antec.'

I should have remembered another good Thucydidean example from 1.22.1, his famous description of his methodology:

καὶ ὅσα μὲν λόγῳ εἶπον ἕκαστοι ἢ μέλλοντες πολεμήσειν ἢ ἐν αὐτῷ ἤδη ὄντες, χαλεπὸν τὴν ἀκρίβειαν αὐτὴν τῶν λεχθέντων διαμνημονεῦσαι ἦν ἐμοί τε ὧν αὐτὸς ἤκουσα καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοθέν ποθεν ἐμοὶ ἀπαγγέλλουσιν: ...

'With regard to all that the two sides said in speeches, either when they were on the verge of war, or when they were actually in conflict, remembering the exact terms of what was spoken was difficult, both for me, in the case of the speeches which I heard myself, and for those who reported them to me from elsewhere; ...'

John

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Re: Plb. 6.3

Post by pster » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:40 pm

Warning: I have already budgeted a quite insane amount of time to master these words by working through all of Smyth, LSJ and probably Goodwin. :D

As for LSJ's 'freq. without antec.' section, it is actually really quite short. It is made up of passages from Homer and one passage from Thucydides, 2.45:

εἰ δέ με δεῖ καὶ γυναικείας τι ἀρετῆς, ὅσαι νῦν ἐν χηρείᾳ ἔσονται, μνησθῆναι, βραχείᾳ παραινέσει ἅπαν σημανῶ.

Here I would claim that we are to imagine an implicit antecedent in front of γυναικείας. Yes, I know, we would have to change it from the abstract adjectival feminine to plural substantial women. But that doesn't phase me in the least. I think at the heart of the meaning and sense that is what is happening.

If it is necessary for me to remark somewhat of feminine virtue, as many as are now widows...

If it is necessary for me to remark somewhat of so many virtuous women, as many as are now widows...

The syntax needs to be massaged, but the sense and meaning point to a clear antecedent. If they didn't, or so I claim, we wouldn't be able to understand it.

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I will put up a comment about the Thucydides passage you mention in an hour or two. :)

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