Word Order

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Milito
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Re:Word Order

Post by Milito » Tue Jul 15, 2003 2:23 pm

[quote author=William Annis link=board=3;threadid=229;start=15#1252 date=1057976487]<br /><br />My delicate poetic sensibilities would feel much calmer if you put the complex phrase at the end of this utterance: calceorum et navium, regum et cerae sigillorum. (And I might suggest moving the calceorum before the comma, just for parallel sounds. Anyway.)<br /><br />This is a standard part of the early poetic traditions of the entire Indo-European sphere, popping up in the Rg Veda, Homer, Ovid (probably via Homer) and the Irish bards.<br /><br />It's call the "law of increasing members." When you list 3+ things, the very last thing needs to be longer somehow, usually by adding an adjective or a genitive. <br /><br />"Snaggle-toothed A, B and C." Ack! No good.<br /><br />"A, B and snaggle-toothed C." Ah. Isn't that better?<br /><br />[/quote]<br /><br />You're right all round. It is better. And I appreciate the comment on the poetical sensibilities. Sooner or later I'll get beyond just gasping/grasping for meaning, and actually get presentation in there too..... (And Magistra.... I do apologize for forgetting the cabbages!)<br /><br />Kilmeny
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Episcopus
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Re:Word Order

Post by Episcopus » Tue Jul 15, 2003 4:55 pm

I don't really follow word order when I attempt to write Latin! I slap down whatever feels right emphasis wise :-X
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mariek
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Re:Word Order

Post by mariek » Tue Jul 15, 2003 5:59 pm

I'm still learning the basics but I'm sure I'll learn the finer points of Latin and better writing style in the future. But it makes so much sense now that you've pointed out how much better it sounds when the longer words are at the end.

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Episcopus
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Re:Word Order

Post by Episcopus » Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:20 pm

what does "sigillum" mean?<br />I saw someone on IRC cum eo username
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Magistra
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Re:Word Order

Post by Magistra » Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:40 pm

Sigillum is usually used in the plural as you can see from earlier posts here.<br /><br />Posted by: benissimus Posted on: July 11, 2003, 05:28:03 PM Of shoes and ships, of ceiling wax, of cabbages and kings!<br /><br />Posted by: Milito Posted on: July 11, 2003, 05:32:32 PM <br />"Calceorum et navium, cerae sigillorum et regum!"<br /><br />This is the entry form the Lewis & Short Dictionary found at the Perseus Project.<br /><br />s&#301;gilla , &#333;rum (sing.: SIGILLVM VOLKANI, Inscr. Marin. Fratr. Arv. p. 357; v. also infra, II.), n. dim. [signum] .<br /><br />I. Little figures or images: apposuit patellam, in qu&#257; sigilla erant egregia, Cic. Verr. 2, 4, 22, § 48 : Tyrrhena sigilla, Hor. Ep. 2, 2, 180 : parva, Lact. 2, 4, 19 : perparvula, Cic. Verr. 2, 4, 43, § 85 ; Plin. 36, 24, 59, § 183; Ov. A. A. 1, 407: quattuor certamina brevibus distincta sigillis, woven or wrought in, id. M. 6, 86.-- Of the figures on seal-rings: sigilla anulo imprimere, Cic. Ac. 2, 26, 86 .--<br /><br />b. Transf., a seal, Hor. Ep. 1, 20, 3; Vulg. Apoc. 5, 1; 6, 1 et saep.-- _ast;<br /><br />II. In the sing. for signum, a sign, mark, trace, Ven. Vit. S. Mart. 2, 326.<br /><br />Here's the address for the entry. If you go there, you'll see that more information is given.<br /><br />http://perseus.mpiwg-berlin.mpg.de/cgi- ... 2344190<br /><br />Magistra
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benissimus
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Re:Word Order

Post by benissimus » Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:15 pm

I think you're all getting a bit ahead of yourselves! of cabbages and kings... that's not a genitive "of"! You must use DE+Abl.!<br /><br />Sorry to burst your poetic bubble :P
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

Magistra
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Re:Word Order

Post by Magistra » Wed Jul 16, 2003 2:05 am

You're absolutely right!! I think everyone keyed off of the word "of" which the genitive case represents. However, in the original context the "of" = "about" which is "de".<br /><br />Maximas gratias!<br /><br />Magistra
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Magistra
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Re:Word Order

Post by Magistra » Wed Jul 16, 2003 2:36 am

Just for fun -- more Lewis Carroll in Latin.<br /><br />http://www.gmu.edu/departments/fld/CLAS ... us.html<br /><br />Word order?? Are most of these "real words"?<br /><br />Magistra
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Milito
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Re:Word Order

Post by Milito » Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:21 pm

Yes, Benissimus is right (again).... It should be "de". And Magistra is right, too - I was the keying on the word "of" which triggered so many genitives.... I'll stand by the 'sigillorum', though, as part of "wax of seals" = sealing wax!<br /><br />And on Jabberwocky (the English version......) Apparently only 2 words in that whole poem are not "real". One is 'vorpol' (as in - "He took his vorpol blade in hand" (I think I spelled it wrong....), and I don't remember the other, although it might be 'snicker-snack', as in "what the vorpol blade went"..... I can't speak for the accuracy of the Latin words, though......<br /><br />Kilmeny
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mariek
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Re:Word Order

Post by mariek » Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:41 pm

Since words ending in -a are predominantely feminine ... does this mean "Magistra" is a feminine noun? And if it were to be masculinized, would it be "Magistrus" (like domina vs dominus)?

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