Eccite Hominem?

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Jefferson Cicero
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Eccite Hominem?

Post by Jefferson Cicero »

Here's a question that I, being such a neophyte, have been puzzling over since I finished Wheelock's Latin Grammar and then heard, once again, the famous Pontius Pilot quote, 'Ecce Homo!'

Pilot was addressing a croud, and 'homo' should be in the accusative, right? So why did he not say 'Eccite Hominem!'? That's assuming that my grammar here is correct, I haven't checked it to make sure.

Is 'Ecce Homo' a colloquial usage that existed in Pilot's time, or perhaps is it a colloquial usage of the Vulgar Latin of Jerome's era?

How stupid a question is this, or perhaps I should ask, how many other neophytes have wondered about this?

Jf Cc :?

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Post by Ulpianus »

I think it's right. Ecce is an indeclinable interjection: "Look!", not a verb. So the sentence as a whole is "Look [here is] the person!" with "here is" understood. With esse whether understood or express, both subject and predicate go in the nominative, just as if you said "Jesus est homo" or whatever.

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Jefferson Cicero
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Thanks

Post by Jefferson Cicero »

Thanks for clearing this up. If such interjections are covered in Wheelock, then I must have forgotten about them. It has been a while since I finished it, and I haven't had time for further study.

On the other hand, a quick scan of the contents of my 4th edition didn't turn them up, and Ecce is not in the glossary.

I really need further study of grammar and a lot of reading of literature. I thought this phrase might be a colloquialism because that's usually what messes up my comprehension when reading.

Jfn Ccr :o

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benissimus
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Post by benissimus »

Wheelock doesn't cover the interjections very much, other than vae, eheu, and O. I do recall the text using the phrase age me! age me, which it might surprise some to know is not from ago, agere but a Greek imperative forced into an interjectional expression.

"Pontius Pilot"... :lol: I always love a good malapropism; his name was "Pontius Pilate (Pilatus)".
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

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Jefferson Cicero
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concerning the malapropism

Post by Jefferson Cicero »

:oops: 'Pilot?' What was Eye thinking? A pair ently not much. I new that the proper spelling was 'Pilate'! I've red his name many times, and spelt it wright everytime before!

The malapropism was inside my mined. What makes won make such silly mistakes when won should no butter?

Jeff (Cic)

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Re: concerning the malapropism

Post by Evito »

Jefferson Cicero wrote::oops: 'Pilot?' What was Eye thinking? A pair ently not much. I new that the proper spelling was 'Pilate'! I've red his name many times, and spelt it wright everytime before!

The malapropism was inside my mined. What makes won make such silly mistakes when won should no butter?

Jeff (Cic)
Well after you writing "croud" nothing should really be of any surprise to me. ;)

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Jefferson Cicero
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aargh!

Post by Jefferson Cicero »

:oops: Aargh! Caught again!

Believe it or not, I used to write for a newspaper!

My excuse? I work at nights and sleep during the day, and I often get very little sleep. You'd be surprised how stupid and unwatchful you can get that way.

Jeff Cicy

P.S. How do you spell 'aargh!' in Dutch?

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Re: aargh!

Post by ingrid70 »

Jefferson Cicero wrote::oops: Aargh! Caught again!
P.S. How do you spell 'aargh!' in Dutch?
Aargh! But we spell 'oops' as 'oeps' :).

Ingrid

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Post by Evito »

Or say "Bij Hercules", which means "Mehercle!"

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thanks

Post by Jefferson Cicero »

Thanks for these comments. I studied Dutch for a while years ago because I am partly of Dutch descent. I didn't have much time for it after getting a new job, so I had to quit. Then, when I had time again, I started on Latin.

I intend to begin my study of Dutch again, some day.

Jefferson Cicero :)

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Post by MickeyV »

I wouldn't bother. Try German instead. :D

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Reason why?

Post by Jefferson Cicero »

MickeyV wrote:
I wouldn't bother. Try German instead.
:) You may as well talk to the moon. I intend to learn Scots Doric as well since it is ancestral.

Actually, German was the first language I ever studied on my own, but I never learnt to write it, just speak it well enough to survive on my own in Germany. Aside form the ancestral aspect, I was drawn to Dutch because it was a lot like German, yet so different.

I once read that if you know German, you may as well learn Dutch, because knowledge of one will give you a head start in learning the other. It's like the Romance languages. If you learn Spanish, why not also learn Italian? Knowledge of one will give you the other for half price or so, in terms of effort, etc. I have heard of people who learn languages in groups like this.

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Post by benissimus »

All right, here's my worst case of malapropism yet...

Until yesterday, I thought that word that you hear every so often "incorrigible" was "encouragable" :oops:
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

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Re: multilinguists

Post by xn »

Jefferson Cicero: Some years ago I visited Tønsberg, Norway; Tuttlingen, Germany; Amsterdam; and Antwerpen on one trip, the former two for genealogical reasons and the latter two for a holiday from my vacation. :) I attempted to learn “survival” basics in each of (bokmål) Norwegian, German, and Dutch/Flemish. I found that while I could keep the written forms straight, I’d often pronounce the words of one language as if they were words from one of the other languages. The merchants of the Vlaeykensgang must have wondered about which planet I called home …

xn

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Post by cadoro »

MickeyV wrote:I wouldn't bother. Try German instead. :D
I make a quick holiday to the Netherlands a year or so back and almost everyone I spoke to was fluent in English, not just a few words but better even than a native speaker sometimes.My own pathetic attempts to speak Dutch were met with a sympathetic/condescending look and a reply in perfect English.At that point I closed the Dutch phrase -book and determined not to try with Dutch ever again.It's your own fault for all being so good at English :lol: Do you all have secret underground English schools there?

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mixed pronbounciation

Post by Jefferson Cicero »

xn: I can sympathise with what you say. Someone who has studied Latin, and knows the etymologies of Romance words, may not have such a problem with getting words or pronounciations from one Romance Language confused with another when trying to speak. I wouldn't count on it though, and there is no written ancestral Germanic language, holding a place in that family corresponding to Latin's position with the Romance, that could be studied for this purpose, even if it would help.

After I finished Wheelock, I bought an Italian book for beginners. I had to stop using it because, since I had so recently finished studying Latin, the Italian (since it has a simpler grammar by comparison) kept looking like butchered Latin. It seemed that Italian was missing grammatical elements that should be there but aren't. Italian started looking like Latin that had been accosted on the streets of Rome, mugged, robbed of grammar, raped, stomped, hacked to pieces, and left laying in a pile of bloody pieces on the sidewalk. I could almost see the severed body parts.

:? I guess that a close attention to detail is necessary to keep from mispronouncing words from one related language to the other, but that's not easy to obtain or maintain when speaking face to face with natives, and having to spit out sentences on the spot. Learning to read a language is not the same as learning to speak it. I marvel at those who may be able to keep it all straight.

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