Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

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Anthony Appleyard
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Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Anthony Appleyard »

Tolkien's "The Hobbit" has been published in Latin, as "Hobbitus Ille", ISBN 978 0 00 744521 9,
published by Harper Collins. I have a copy of it. Likely its translator (Mark Walter) will welcome any complains and suggestions.

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Anthony Appleyard »

One translation feature that I did not care for was translating the character name Bard (Lakeman leader) as 'Vates'. OK, "vates" sometimes means "a bard". But "bard" in this meaning is a Celtic word, and when writing this part of 'The Hobbit' Tolkien was thinking in Germanic and Old Norse, not in Celtic, and the name Bard was likelier extracted from the Germanic tribe name Langobardi, and Bard here is renowned as a warrior and dragon-slayer, and not as a singer or prophet. Translating the name as 'Bardus', or nominative 'Bard', accusative 'Bardem', etc, seems better to me.

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by adrianus »

I thought the word "bard/bardos" (bardus in Lat.) is originally Old Irish-Celtic, not Germanic.
Goidelicum vocabulum non germanicum est "bard/bardos" (bardos Graecè, bardus Latinè quod nomen jam latinè exstat, at non bard, bardis).

Post scriptum
Modo capio, Antoni. Nunc sensum tuum intellego. Licet.

I just grasped what you mean, Anthony. OK.

Forsit praeferendum est hoc ut praenomen: Barba seu barbatus
http://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/BARD
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Anthony Appleyard »

The name Beorn (the man who can change into a bear) is translated as nominative as English and the other cases in Latin 3rd declension: Beornis etc. (This was often done in the Latin translations of Harry Potter, e.g. Malfoy, Malfonem, Malfonis, etc; Voldemort, Voldemortem, etc.) Gollum is treated as neuter 2nd decl: Golli etc.

As regards how to decline foreign words, the same happens in Lithuanian and Latvian, which have cases somewhat like Latin including nom.sg. -s: Latvians often spell Heathrow (the airport) as Hītrovas.

Another word that Mark Walter seems to have taken from the Harry Potter translations is 'hamaxostichum' for "railway train": in The Hobbit it occurs once, in a simile.

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Anthony Appleyard »

Another example of declining foreign names occurs in the published Latin translations of two Winnie the Pooh books: the name 'Pooh' gets a somewhat surprising heteroclite declension: nom. Pu, acc. Pum, gen. Pui, dat & abl Puo; acc. pl. Puos; and 'Roo' likewise as Ru. Voc. diminutives Pucule and Rucule.

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Alatius »

As a big Tolkien fan, I very much looked forward to this translation, but after reading just a little more than the first chapter, I'm sad to say that I found just too many issues for it to be enjoyable. Just some examples of things I found dubious:

"... when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along ..."
"... quandoquidem talis ingens et stulta gens qualis tu et ego rustice errat ..." (p. xvi)
Seeing that the English obviously is about single individuals, I can hardly think of a worse word than "gens" to translate "folk".

"... although he looked and behaved exactly like a second edition of his solid and commforable father ..."
"... quamquam et in specie et in moribus editio secunda patris solidi gratique esse uideretur ..." (p. xvii)
First, I think "editio secunda" is too literal a translation, but mainly I wonder why those "in"s are needed. Why not just "specie et moribus"?

"He did not remember things very well, unless he put them down on his Engagement Tablet."
"res non optime recordatus est, nisi eas in tabula negotiorum inscripsit. (p. xx)"
The original describes Bilbo’s general character, not a single isolated instance of forgetfulness. So unless I'm mistaken, I think "... non recordabatur, nisi inscribebat/inscripserat ..." would be better.

"... but poor Mr. Baggins said he was sorry so many times...
miser autem Dominus Baggins crebro dixit se excusari... (p. xxiv)
Maybe I'm missing something, but I can only read that as "... said that he was being excused ..."?

"Then Gandalf’s smoke-ring would go green and come back to hover over the wizard’s head. He had a cloud of them about him already ..."
"tum corona Gandalphi, in uiridem uersa et regressa, super caput magi pependit. iam nubem quarum circum eum habuit ..." (p. xxvi)
Several issues here. First, (this may be debatable), but I don't think "corona" is the best word: the thing with a smoke-ring is that it is round, like an "anulus", not that it surrounds or crowns something like a "corona". Second, the position of "quarum" is very atypical: to the best of my knowledge, such relative pronouns should always begin a sentence; yet, the translator uses this kind of construction a lot. Third, "eum" should of course be "se".

"... he can’t have used it for years and years."
"... multos annos illo uti non potuit." (p. xxxiv)
But since he still can't use it, it should be "potest" in place of "potuit", I think.

"I didn’t get your note until after 10.45 to be precise."
"epistolium tuum non accepi quoad decem atque quinque quadraginta, exactum esse." (p. xliv)
Really? I honestly don't know what to say about this sentence.

Edit: Some more for your amusement(?):

"Dwarves can make a fire almost anywhere out of almost anything, wind or no wind."
"paene in aliquo loco paene ex aliquo, cum uento aut nullo, nani ignem accendere possunt" (p. xlvvi)

"Silly time to go practising pinching and pocket-picking..."
"tempus stultum fuit ad exercendum furantem et subripientem e sinibus" (p. lvi)

"Then the stone door swung back with one big push, and they all went inside."
"tum ianua saxea ab una pulsa magna retro uersata omnes introierunt." (p. lvii)

"This won't do at all!"
"hoc non prorsum bene facit!" (p. lxxi)

"touch and go!" (An idiom meaning "precarious" -- I had to look it up.)
"tange et i!" (p. cvii)

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by thesaurus »

You all are crushing the excitement I had about acquiring this book...

Alas, I guess a good Latin translation is a lot to ask for in this day and age. I fear that a lot of translations will suffer from being too literal to the English phraseology and syntax, as these examples seem to indicate.

How does it compare to, say, Harrius Potter or Willie Ille Pu with regards to Latinity?
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by thesaurus »

Alatius, I just read your review on Amazon, which was tough but fair.

It occurs to me that the book probably had no real editor. I'm guessing that he worked on his translation more or less in the dark until it saw the light of day. It sounds as if the whole text should be carefully revised and peer reviewed by other experienced Latinists, which would have been a normal event in the case that it wasn't written in Latin.

I don't suspect that any new editions of the text will come out, but it sounds as if your help could be much needed, Alatius.
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Carolus Raeticus »

Salve Thesaure!

Having just finished Stevenson's Insula Thesauraria (in the translation of Arcadius Avellanus) I've now started to read Hobbitus ille (which, judging from the first few pages, is somewhat easier than Insula Thesauraria).

In my opinion, Thesaurus, I would not worry too much. I am certainly not proficient enough to judge the quality of the translation effort, but I am quite sure that it is reasonably error free, and whatever "errors" in construction or grammar seem to appear will be mostly an idiosyncrasy of the translator. A few real errors will be present, of course, but that's probably to be expected in any not completely trivial piece of translation. And as far as the right translation is concerned, well, that does not exist, anyway. Much of that is a judgment call.

Plus: you can analyze almost any text to death. I am quite sure that if you applied this critique to some of the ancient Latin authors you could clobber them just as well. And if you apply such stringent standards to the whole body of literature in Latin, then you will probably have to chuck out most of medieval literature and sooner or later find yourself confined to Cicero.

So relax. As the translator himself states in the introduction:
<The Latin Hobbit> is nothing more or less than a novel - but a novel in Latin. Which is to say, it is a Latin text whose principle aim is to be read solely for the pleasure of reading. <...> This is not "The Hobbit" as if written for the Emperor Augustus; it is simply "The Hobbit" for anyone who has sufficient Latin grammar and a good dictionary.
I am glad that someone took the pains to translate the book. A continuous narrative, which is not too difficult (the translator stresses its importance as intermediate reading material), is very helpful in learning a language. And there is not a huge choice of such books in Latin. There are selections of short texts, of course, but not that many long ones. Any addition is welcome, in my opinion.

Vale,

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Alatius »

I do wish that I was only overtly critical, but I really do not think that I am. Thesaure, you asked about how it compares to books like Peter Needham's translation of Harrius Potter: well, while Needham can be accused of occasional Anglicisms ("classem habere" of a student having a lesson scheduled comes to mind), and possibly occasional sentences which to a Roman would seem awkward or heavy-handed, over all it is a good grammatical text made by a competent translator; Hobbitus Ille is of a completely different nature. My complaints are not about mere deviations from a Ciceronian style, it is about violations of basic grammatical rules common to all of Latinity.
Carolus Raeticus wrote:I am certainly not proficient enough to judge the quality of the translation effort, but I am quite sure that it is reasonably error free, and whatever "errors" in construction or grammar seem to appear will be mostly an idiosyncrasy of the translator.
You would think so, because that is a reasonable expectation to have on a printed book from a respectable publisher. Of course, the publisher has the ultimate responsibility, not only towards the consumers but also, I would argue, towards the author/translator, to ensure that the work is of the highest quality; unfortunately, it seems that Harper Collins has completely neglected to do any quality control at all. (I'm just speculating, but one reason for that may be that the work was rushed to be published in time to celebrate The Hobbit's 75th anniversary, and also in advance of the upcoming movie.)
The translator wrote:This is not "The Hobbit" as if written for the Emperor Augustus; it is simply "The Hobbit" for anyone who has sufficient Latin grammar and a good dictionary.
That is all well and dandy; I am not expecting a Ciceronian style. The problem is that it seems that the translator himself has not got a sufficient Latin grammar or a good dictionary, or at least not the knowledge or time to use them properly.

I feel slightly embarrassed going on flogging this horse, but in case you want further examples of the kind of things I have problems with, I just opened the book where I happened to be at the moment and noted the worst things I could find. What do you say of these examples? In what kind of Latin are things such as these reasonable constructions?

He is very fond of forming compound nouns based one the English pattern:

"... quickly laid [bowls etc.] on the trestle-tables."
"... cito in mensas-fulcimenta posuerunt." (p. cxxxvi)

"... [the moon] was peering down through the smoke-hole in the roof."
"... [luna] per foramen-fumum in tecto despiciebat." (p. cxxxix)

On several occasions he reveals a confounding of the English gerund and the present participle:

"... he heard the same scraping, scuffling, snuffling, and growling as before."
"... radentem eandem, rixantem, odorantem atque frementem ut ante audiuit." (p. cxlii)

I'm not sure what to say of this:

"... twice-baked cakes that would keep good a long time, and on a little of which they could march far. The makeing of these was one of his secrets; but honey was in them, as in most of his foods, and they were good to eat, though they made one thirsty."
"... liba bis cocta, quae longum tempus bonum [sic!] condi possint, et in paruo cuius [sic!] longe iter facere poterunt [sic!]. de faciendo [sic!] quorum [sic!] fuit una rerum arcanarum eius; sed mel in eis inerat, sicut in plurimis cibis suis [sic!], et bona edi [sic!] erant quamquam effecerunt ut quidam [sic!] sitiat." (p. cxliii)

(Perhaps you could find mediaeval examples to justify some of it, but it is certainly not what a modern reader would expect.)

And I could go on...

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Carolus Raeticus »

Hello Alatius!

I have to admit that you raise some valid points. Still, I will continue to read the book. However, I will take care to read critically and heed the points you raised (and beware of even more). Sometimes you can learn from other people's mistakes.

Thank you for you in-depth look at the book.

Vale,

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by ptolemyauletes »

In general I am pretty forgiving of Latin Translations of English books. Many allowances have to be made. At first I thought that Alatius was being overly critical, but after reading his second post I am not so sure. Some of these grammatical constructions are just not Latin. I would mark them wrong if my students came up with them. I am thinking in particular of some of the participles and the use of an Infinitive for purpose. However, could it be that the translator is attempting to capture some of the idiomatic and improper 'Hobbit' language with some equally improper Latin? Is that being too generous? The present Participles certainly have no excuse.
I myself, in my own MASSIVE translation exercise (I will leave it up to you to work out what it is, but my obvious hint is that this particular publication is of great interest to me), have found endless problems and have had to make all sorts of allowances and have written some Latin that I know is wrong. Does one go to archaic Latin, such as Plautus or Terence for inspiration when trying to translate rustic Hobbit English?
A big problem to be sure is that the translator here is not publishing a book that will make a lot of money, and consequently the editing process is not going to be a thorough one. Add to this the scarcity of Latin editors period, never mind finding those competent enough and willing to take on such a task... I have had my own difficulties. I certainly know people who are qualified to edit any text I might ever consider publishing, but to find any that are willing? There just isn't a big enough market in Latin translations to pay someone to edit properly. Latin translations of The Hobbit or Harry Potter are largely novelty items. Very few are read beyond a few pages.
I have a copy of Hobbitus Ille, and I will read it, and give my opinion at some later date. MY biggest problem is that I had only just finished reading the Hobbit in English a day before I discovered it in Latin!!! I will have to wait until I am back in the mood.
BTW I thought the Harry Potter translation was fantastic. I have only ever read Harry Potter in Latin!
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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by ptolemyauletes »

'The making of these was one of his secrets'

'de faciendo [sic!] quorum [sic!] fuit una rerum arcanarum eius'

surely

quo modo ea facta essent

and

"... he heard the same scraping, scuffling, snuffling, and growling as before."
"... radentem eandem, rixantem, odorantem atque frementem ut ante audiuit."

sonum eundem radendi, rixandi, odorandi, fremendique ac antea audivit.
Although I am not convinced that 'scuffling' should be translated with the verb rixor. I don't think her heard a fight...
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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by thesaurus »

If we all had unlimited free time for such projects, I'd say that Textkit Forums should produce an edited version of the whole book. You two both have good suggestions for improvements and a keen eye.
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Alatius »

ptolemyauletes wrote: However, could it be that the translator is attempting to capture some of the idiomatic and improper 'Hobbit' language with some equally improper Latin? Is that being too generous?
I think it is too generous. Most of the book is narrative, and the voice of the narrator is that of a modern adult (if not Tolkien himself) telling the story to a child. Nothing rustic or ungrammatical there. (Besides, I don't think there is any rustic about Bilbo's language, is there? He is, after all, an upper-class gentle-hobbit.)
thesaurus wrote:If we all had unlimited free time for such projects, I'd say that Textkit Forums should produce an edited version of the whole book. You two both have good suggestions for improvements and a keen eye.
Even time permitting, I wouldn't be interested; it would be much more rewarding to do a new translation from scratch.

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by rustymason »

Thank you for your reviews. I think it would be interesting to read a daily blog from a professional translator, explaining himself as he translates a work into Latin or Greek.

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Nesrad »

Alatius wrote:I do wish that I was only overtly critical, but I really do not think that I am. Thesaure, you asked about how it compares to books like Peter Needham's translation of Harrius Potter: well, while Needham can be accused of occasional Anglicisms ("classem habere" of a student having a lesson scheduled comes to mind), and possibly occasional sentences which to a Roman would seem awkward or heavy-handed, over all it is a good grammatical text made by a competent translator; Hobbitus Ille is of a completely different nature. My complaints are not about mere deviations from a Ciceronian style, it is about violations of basic grammatical rules common to all of Latinity.
*Gasp* I'd hate to read worse Latin than Harrius Potter. Harrius is gramatically correct, yes, but still poor Latin and unfit for advanced students. The words are Latin, but the style is English. Definitely not as good as Avellanus.

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Interaxus »

I notice that some people (at Amazon for example) have written glowing reviews of Hobbitus Ille, undisturbed by the many glowing grammatical errors in the book.

Ille Alatius, who pointed out a plethora of flaws in the book, is made to seem mean-spirited and pedantic. But as far as I can tell, Alatius - like most of us here – merely pleads for some minimum level of ’correctness’ in Latin materials published even in this late day and age.

There is nothing new under the sun. A Renaissance humanist, Leonardo Bruni, having been similarly criticized for criticizing a bad Latin translation of Aristotle’s Ethics, defended himself against his detractors in a letter to a friend. Here’s his Latin from 1535 together with an English translation. For Aristotle, substitute Tolkien. For Greek, substitute English.


I said the books were clumsily translated: who could deny it? - Dixi libros illos inepte traductos: quis negare potest?

I said that Greek words had been left in through ignorance of the Latin language, - Dixi graeca verba ob ignorationem latinae linguae ab eo relicta,

words for which we had quite excellent words in Latin, - pro quibus latina vel optima haberemus,

and I not only said it but proved it, and cited the actual words. - nec dixi modo, sed probavi, et verba ipsa ostendi.

I showed up the other mistakes too, and they are neither few nor slight. - Cetera quoque errata, nec ea pauca, nec levis redargui.

.......................

For my part, if someone were throwing filth at a painting of Giotto's, I could not tolerate it. - Equidem si in picturam Jocti quis faecem projiceret, pati non possem.

So what do you expect me to feel when I see Aristotle's books, finer than any painting, being defiled with such filth of translation? - Quid ergo existimas mihi accidere, cum Aristotelis libros omni pictura elegantiores tanta traductionis faece coinquinari videam?

Should I not be roused ? Or disturbed?-
An non commoveri? an non turbari?

Yet after all I kept back my curses and argued the case itself, and did so openly. - Maledictis tamen abstinui, sed rem ipsam redargui, ac palam feci.

Cheers,
Int

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Nesrad »

It's well-known that negative reviews are not appreciated by Amazon users. I wonder how many of these "users" are real people and not just accounts set up by the author or editor of the book.

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by thesaurus »

Great quote from Bruni, Interaxus. Very fitting.

I don't think publishers/authors need be suspect, because the fan base for Tolkein is quite large and fierce. Many people who can't or won't ever read it are probably just happy to see that this book was published, and they aren't necessarily thinking about or interested in Latinity, Leonardo Bruni's comments not withstanding. A negative review is akin to a negative review of The Hobbit and series itself.
Horae quidem cedunt et dies et menses et anni, nec praeteritum tempus umquam revertitur nec quid sequatur sciri potest. Quod cuique temporis ad vivendum datur, eo debet esse contentus. --Cicero, De Senectute

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Placidus »

Indeed the Tolkien harcore fans will buy anything that comes out on Middle Earth and other works of his.

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by scotistic »

I wrote the review under my own name - Michael Sullivan - and I stand by it. I did indeed read the entire book from cover to cover over a couple of days, and enjoyed it. As I noted, it is not at all without its flaws, both minor and major; there are many things which might have been done differently or should have been done better. But rejecting it as worthless is silly. The Latin is inelegant but never unintelligible. I found it thoroughly easy to read and understand throughout, and I believe the Latin got more correct as the book went on (even as the style of the original becomes higher and more formal towards the end). With more revision it could certainly have been improved.

I would reiterate what I wrote there about the greater affinity of Hobbitus to medieval books of tales than to classical or Renaissance humanist texts. Indeed bringing up the humanists is amusing, since their attitude would have excluded most of medieval Latin too. Not that Hobbitus' Latin is medieval, but rather its attitude towards Latin is more like what one finds there than in the humanists. For myself I see no reason to complain about it. But then I learned Latin in the first place not primarily to read the classics but to read the medievals, and though I do love the classics I have read far less of them than of their successors. Weird Latin doesn't bother me so long as it is intelligible. My complaint with Hobbitus would not be that it is "incorrect" so much as that it is frequently clunky and uneuphonious, while "bad" medieval Latin was frequently charming, beautiful, and easy.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned Arcadius Avellanus. I note that his translations were also criticized by several of his contemporaries as evincing incorrect Latin, for example, here: http://books.google.com/books?id=holJAA ... al&f=false

Apparently Arcadius had no patience with the insistence that one stick to classical norms, whether in the grammar or in the dictionary. Given that his books are enjoyable and useful to read, why should we complain about this? Now his Latin is certainly closer to being "correct" than that of Hobbitus; on the other hand, it's much more difficult, both more syntactically complex and having a much larger and more obscure vocabulary. Hobbitus is expressly meant for learners to have something fun to divert themselves with. I think it would serve that purpose just fine, despite its faults, for people not yet at a level sufficient to enjoy Insula Thesauraria or Fabulae Divales.
Last edited by scotistic on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by adrianus »

Bonam apologiam seu patrocinium!
That's a very good defence!
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Nesrad »

There's no doubt that it would have been difficult, if not impossible, to employ a perfectly Ciceronian style to translate the Hobbit, but there's a huge difference between easy Latin and gramatically incorrect Latin.

Avellanus had excellent style. Though not classical, it could certainly be called proper Latin. That's not the case for Hobbitus which could more appropriately be called kitchen Latin (latin de cuisine).

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by adrianus »

Culinarii latini quidem est illa apologia, at bona. Meâ parte, latinitatem operis de quo tractamus non admiror, non minùs si tirones videamus.
Michael's is indeed a defence of kitchen latin but a good defence at the same time. Personally, I can't look up to the latin of the work this discussion is about, even for beginners.
I'm writing in Latin hoping for correction, and not because I'm confident in how I express myself. Latinè scribo ut ab omnibus corrigar, non quod confidenter me exprimam.

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Interaxus »

scotistic:
“Hobbitus is expressly meant for learners to have something fun to divert themselves with”
Unlike yourself and other apologists who already know Latin, the learners you and the publishers claim are the prime target group are unlikely to be able to read the book in a couple of days and divert themselves with skipping over patches of dubious Latin. Those kids or adults attempting to read the book at all are likely to have a genuine interest in Latin and will struggle to read a bit of the book at a time, hoping to improve their Latin in the process.

But they cannot trust this text. It contains too many outright/outrageous errors to stand as a model.

How then might this book serve the interests of such learners? Conceivably by reinforcing some basic vocabulary. But surely immersion in a sea of syntactic howlers with the attendant risk of contamination is too high a price to pay.

Nobody is asking for Ciceronian Latin. Or perfection. Just a minimum level of correctness.

Mistakes are inevitable when we try to speak Latin or send emails or post something on the Internet in Latin. But that’s informal Latin and totally in order.

However, when a respected company (HarperCollins) publishes a Latin translation of a modern cult classic, we are entitled to expect more than kitchen Latin.
.
I see Hobbitus as symptomatic of our commercialized, media-dominated age. It offers a tattoo and T-shirt version of Latin while revealing a less fortunate aspect of the Empowerment of Amateurs (yes, I’m one of those!).

.....

As for the link to Avellanus, just go there and search in the box for ‘Avellanus’. You’ll see that the reviewer, no less an authority than the renowned W.H.D. Rouse, cordially recommends Latin teachers to read Avellanus aloud in class.

Cheers,
Int

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Nesrad »

Interaxus: I agree with your entire post, especially:
Interaxus wrote:Nobody is asking for Ciceronian Latin. Or perfection. Just a minimum level of correctness.

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Anthony Appleyard »

"... when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along ..."
"... quandoquidem talis ingens et stulta gens qualis tu et ego rustice errat ..." (p. xvi)
I got the impression that that is not a good use of "quandoquidem". Virgil reserved "quandoquidem" for a very special and grand use in the Aeneid, for "inasmuch as" in a speech by the god Jupiter giving a judgement.

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Nesrad »

Really now is that the only difficulty you see with this sentence?

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Alatius »

Anthony Appleyard wrote:
"... when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along ..."
"... quandoquidem talis ingens et stulta gens qualis tu et ego rustice errat ..." (p. xvi)
I got the impression that that is not a good use of "quandoquidem".
Yes, there is no question about that. I would think that the most likely explanation is that the translator intended "quandocumque" but mixed the words up in his mind. (Of course, anyone can make such mistakes, but the chance for such blunders grow the less your active knowledge of the language is...)

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by DoctorBadger »

Hi, I hope this thread is still open. I have read the comments with interest, because I am reading mainly latin translations of modern works, to build up my abilities.
For example
Needham, Potteer
Hobbitus
Avellanus
Tom Cotton, Aura in Salices etc
Regulus or the Little Prince
Winnie Ille Pu
etc

But recently I have become concerned by the grammar of some of these. This is through my own growing grammar knowledge, thanks to Colebourne, which is quite gratifying; to notice errors I mean. Are there any other lists of mistakes so I can confirm my suspicions and make an informed decision whether to carry on reading and what to read first? Or indeed to give up modern translations altogether and stick to the classics?

Or shall I create such a thread, or continue on this one?

Looking forward to replies from fellow Latin Lovers.
Robin :)

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by scotistic »

I don't know of any such list of mistakes.

In my view there's no problem with reading these modern translations, depending on what you want out of them. I read many of them for enjoyment and easy practice. I don't write in Latin and am not worried that my ability to read the classics is going to somehow be corrupted by odd or even bad Latin (as I may have said when this thread was new, I've read a great deal of medieval Latin which by classical standards is often odd and sometimes just bad), so long as you don't take what you read as normative for understanding the classic authors. Sometimes the purist attitude seems to go too far: I've seen old textbooks with teachers suggesting that students shouldn't read Hellenistic Greek works because it will spoil them for the Attic authors. If the student is being judged on their ability to compose new Greek or Latin precisely in the style of Thucydides or Cicero, that may be a concern; for us here who are mostly just trying to learn to read, I don't think it makes much sense.

My own favorite among modern Latin translations is Dominus Quixotus a Manica.

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Constantinus Philo »

Morale: don't you ever read anything in modern ridiculous Latin, it's waste if time.
Semper Fidelis

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Virent Ova! Viret Perna! Is just outstanding. In fact, it might be better in Latin than the original English.
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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by DoctorBadger »

Is virent vireo? I read half the book a while back but stopped when I read this thread. I will read it again, but I think the solution is to err towards works written or translated by professional latinists and with good reviews. For example avianus or Peter Needham. Also the renown of the publisher.

At the same time I am working on my Latin prose composition using Colebourne. Stick to the well trodden ground first and then branch out. Tom Cotton has chosen brilliant books to translate,, such as animal farm fundus animalium, and wind in the willows. And there are passages in both which I have found really really beautiful. (Had to say that twice, something I haven't seen in Latin, any ideas?) So I will go back to it.

But I still think a list, nothing fancy, of examples of grammar errors in the first few chapters of a range of Latin translations would be useful. I suppose I should kick off, but it would be good to know if there's any interest.
Robin

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

DoctorBadger wrote: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:48 pm Is virent vireo?
Of course, Green Eggs and Ham. What's fun about their translation is 1) It's not literal, 2) the translators found inspiration in medieval Latin poetry and thus composed in trochaic tetrameter using accent rather syllable length. I've used it for a fun break from normal classroom stuff, and it's a way to discuss the differences between classical and medieval poetry, as well as translation issues.

The opening lines:

Sum 'pincerna' nominatus
famulari nunc paratus!

Est pincerna submolestus
Nec decorus, nec modestus.

Cf. the original:

I AM SAM. I AM SAM. SAM I AM.

THAT SAM-I-AM! THAT SAM-I-AM! I DO NOT LIKE THAT SAM-I-AM!
N.E. Barry Hofstetter

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Constantinus Philo »

Yes that's good
Semper Fidelis

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by Callisper »

DoctorBadger wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:05 pm For example
Needham, Potteer
Hobbitus
Avellanus
Tom Cotton, Aura in Salices etc
Regulus or the Little Prince
Winnie Ille Pu
etc

But recently I have become concerned by the grammar of some of these.
I don't know why you necessarily expect these to be any easier than some Classical Latin that's out there. As far as I can tell many of them look about the same.

There is no point in detecting or listing errors in most of them: they are horrendously badly written. Enough can be found on a Google search to inform you of the 'errors' of Hobbitus and Tom Cotton. I hope you will take my advice not to touch them with a barge-pole. Needham is also too poor to merit wholesale correction. Winnie Ille Pu offers some pretty dubious idioms (for which it was subjected to scathing critique by no less a serious classicist than Christian Fordyce) and moreover I really do not think a student who can read it for fun should have trouble with say Caesar. The same goes for Regulus (though the Latin is less often poor). If I can see any of these books being useful (or shall I say not pernicious?) to a student, it is Regulus, but it's up to you to decide whether matters of vocabulary etc actually leave you able to read it any more easily than the actual classics.

Avellanus gets a good rap for some reason. Certainly he's better than the texts mentioned above but his Latin often abounds in rare, poetic, or late constructions or vocabulary. Again it's hard to see how this could be read for fun or for 'immersion' by a pupil who has only just become able to read Caesar or Cicero. It could be fun for an advanced student (by which I mean one who has run through pretty much the whole classical gamut already at least once - and maybe throw in a healthy dose of Neo-Latin too).

So, what of this kind is good? I haven't read Fragrantia by Nicolas Gross but from what I can tell from the sample online, it's OK. (i.e.: way better than the stuff above) Also, I read in CNLS that Ugo Enrico Paoli translated Pinocchio; I haven't read anything by him ( :cry: ) but judging by his reputation among serious Neo-Latinists I'd expect this to be good.

Then there are the Neo-Latin novels which are variable wrt Classical Latinity, but rarely if ever misguided by modern-language idiom in any way I can notice, which is the important barrier that makes novels like the ones above unhelpful to a beginner. So if you can handle it, I can't recommend anything higher than them. I understand the desire for extended narrative prose on a lighthearted topic, and I am currently reading those novels myself.
scotistic wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:42 pm My own favorite among modern Latin translations is Dominus Quixotus a Manica.
I had not heard of this book until now. I was impressed someone translated the entirety of the novel to Latin so imagine my disappointment at seeing (de quibus) fertur eos habere in the first sentence.
DoctorBadger wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:05 pmOr indeed to give up modern translations altogether and stick to the classics?
Ultimately you will have no choice but to do this. You can look for and find reading material in modern Latin which will not harm you, but not enough at an easy enough level and you'll burn through it quickly and have to take the plunge into harder stuff. At which point there is no reason to read modern Latin instead of the classics. (I personally enjoy both.)

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by mwh »

Time magazine described Winnie Ille Pu on first publication as “a Latinist's delight, the very book that dozens of Americans, possibly even 50, have been waiting for.” But it sold a little more widely than that, and I was one who found it a delight, and very clever. Obviously it’s no way to learn Latin, but we have other resources for that.

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Re: Tolkien's "The Hobbit" in Latin: Hobbitus Ille

Post by jeidsath »

Since Fordyce was mentioned, I thought I would look the review up. It's very short
Alexander Lenard: Winnie Ille Pu. A Latin version of A. A. Milne's Winnie-the-Pooh. Pp. 121; illus. London: Methuen, 1960. Cloth, 12s. 6.d. net.

There is no harm in trying to turn Winnie-the-Pooh into Latin for fun, though probably only a Ronald Knox could hope to make the attempt seem worth while or make a reader share the translator's satisfaction. But it is hard to see any reason for turning it (or anything else) into a language which has a masculine pratulus, a feminine canticula, and a perfect annuivit, and which displays such idioms as dimidium duodecadis, multas felices reditiones diei, latissimum cachinnum extollit, or sese frenos imponere. The object can hardly be to make the work of those who teach Latin to the young even harder than it is, but that may well be the result. If one had heard 'hic colligimus Nuces et Maium' quoted as a schoolboy howler, one would have taken it with a grain of salt: it is here in print. Fun is fun; this is just as funny as writing beaucoup d'heureux retours du jour and calling it French.

University of Glasgow
C. J. Fordyce
I do see "pratulus planus" on page 87 of my edition.
"Hanc canticulam concludo" is on page 121.
On page 70 is "dixit Pu Lepori simul atque ille bis sibi oculo annuivit", but I'm still learning my Latin tenses and can't tell if that is what Fordyce refers to.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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