RANT against Stealing Site Content

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chad
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Post by chad » Sat Jan 10, 2004 6:00 am

all these grey-area hypotheticals... this sounds exactly like a law school class discussion hehehe :)

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Post by Keesa » Sat Jan 10, 2004 12:58 pm

I love law school classes! :D

At least...I think I do. I don't think I've ever actually been in one...
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Post by tdominus » Sat Jan 10, 2004 1:42 pm

Episcopus wrote:If I have the original D'Ooge book, is it illegal to give some one a printed version rather than the lovely but slightly fragile book, whilst telling them of the site whence I firstly became aware of the book, and where they may learn great things courtesy of jeff...

Not that I have or any one whom I know would want the D'Ooge book :)
In that case, so long as you made a copy of the public-domain book, then you could do so without infringing on copyright.

However, copying the file from textkit and distributing it would be a breach of copyright, even if you own the original book, since Jeff would hold the copyright to the derivative digital work, though not to the original public domain book.
Last edited by tdominus on Sat Jan 10, 2004 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by tdominus » Sat Jan 10, 2004 1:44 pm

mingshey wrote:
Episcopus wrote:If I have the original D'Ooge book, is it illegal to give some one a printed version rather than the lovely but slightly fragile book, whilst telling them of the site whence I firstly became aware of the book, and where they may learn great things courtesy of jeff...

Not that I have or any one whom I know would want the D'Ooge book :)
Another similar case would be like this. I have a copy of Smyth's Greek Grammar I bought from Amazon. It is a copyrighted version. Let me suppose I made a backup PDF(instead of downloading the copyright extinguished version from Textkit) for an unexpected damage to the book. And a friend of mine also has the book. If he wants the backup for the same reason and he can't make the backup for himself. So he ask me to give a copy of the backup file. Is it wrong to give it to him?
I believe that would be a breach of copyright, at least in most countries (though perhaps not in Korea).

As for right or wrong, that's another issue entirely.

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Post by Kalailan » Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:57 pm

tdominus wrote:
As for right or wrong, that's another issue entirely.
it is true, but is not the one fraught with the other?

In my opinion this debate is too much on the legal side.
the more important issue here is moral.

<moral rules!>
or as they would say in slang hebrew:
Moral Imperia!

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Lex
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Post by Lex » Mon Jan 12, 2004 3:29 pm

Emma_85 wrote:I think Kalailan was right to be bothered by the term. Your definition is not everyone's definition (as mine is not everyone's definition either). It's a difficult word as people can and do use it differently.
True, people have screwed up the original meaning of the word "rights" almost beyond recognition. Mostly socialists who think that people have the right to all sorts of things that they really don't. :wink: But Kalailan seems to be bothered by more than my definition of the word. He seems to be bothered by my distinguishing between moral duties and legal duties at all! I think it's very important that this be done. We must have social boundaries that people cannot cross, upon threat of force. Those I call "rights". But we must also have moral boundaries that people get to decide for themselves. If people are not allowed to decide any moral boundaries for themselves, the world would become a politically correct hell.

To get back to files on the Internet, I wouldn't mirror TextKit PDFs on a separate server because I like Jeff and respect his wishes (i.e. I feel a moral duty to Jeff), even though I don't think I am legally bound not to mirror them. I might one day mirror the files I screenscraped from Perseus because I don't feel the same moral duty with respect to them (because they purposely make it a PITA to save those files for reading offline).
Emma_85 wrote:If you are legally obliged to do something I would not call that 'right', because in my vocabulary that word is reserved for what is morally right. A government can make a law that says all citizens demonstrating against the government must be shot. That is a harsh example, but a soldier would be legally bound to shoot someone demonstrating, and you would say he would have acted right, where as I would claim him to have acted wrongly.
Well, no, because my conception of legal rights and duties does not depend on what a particular government says. I am not a legal positivist who believes that it is my legal duty to obey any law a government passes. I am sorta kinda a natural law person (not strictly, because the theory has a lot of problems, but I won't belabor this point because this thread has gone far enough afield already).

My distinction between legal and moral duties is more like this; I believe I have a legal duty to not steal your car, for instance. That means that if I attempt to do so, others are justified in using force to prevent me from doing so or to take my ill-gotten gains away from me and return them to you. It doesn't matter whether a government says this is justified or not; it just is.

A moral duty, on the other hand, would be something like giving to charity. I might feel that it is my moral duty to do that. But, since it's not my legal duty to do that, if somebody forces me to do so, that would be unjust. And again, it doesn't matter whether a government says it is my legal duty to donate to certain charities or not; it just isn't.

Wow. This thread has gotten deep. To get back to classics for a sec; I just bought a copy of D'Ooge and Eastman's Caesar In Gaul, copyright 1918. This book is almost falling apart, and desperately needs to be "saved for posterity" before it completely crumbles into dust. I have a scanner, and scanned in a page or two to test. The pages were saved as rather large PDF files (>100 KB per page), and the yellowing on the pages were saved as gray. How do you TextKit PDF wizards get pages to appear as mostly blank white pages? And how do you smush PDF pages together into a single PDF book? Do you need special software for that?
I, Lex Llama, super genius, will one day rule this planet! And then you'll rue the day you messed with me, you damned dirty apes!

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Jeff Tirey
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Post by Jeff Tirey » Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:03 pm

Lex wrote: Wow. This thread has gotten deep. To get back to classics for a sec; I just bought a copy of D'Ooge and Eastman's Caesar In Gaul, copyright 1918. This book is almost falling apart, and desperately needs to be "saved for posterity" before it completely crumbles into dust. I have a scanner, and scanned in a page or two to test. The pages were saved as rather large PDF files (>100 KB per page), and the yellowing on the pages were saved as gray. How do you TextKit PDF wizards get pages to appear as mostly blank white pages? And how do you smush PDF pages together into a single PDF book? Do you need special software for that?
hi Lex:

I'm still looking for a copy of that book that's in good condition - they're
harder to find.

The simplest way to to remove yellowing is to photocopy the file before scanning. This'll wash out most of the background junk and thus produce an image with better contrast and a much lower file size. Software can do this too, but all the inexpensive ones tend to lighten the text as well and the really expensive stuff runs over 1K - so I just photocopy.

It also sounds like you're scanning with too high a color scale. The more colors in the scanner the more there will be shades of grey - which adds to file size and doesn't look as nice. When scannings, scan bitonal color, and export the scan to Tiff type compression 4. Your target file size should be bewteen 10K and 50K depending upon the amount of text and other dark areas in the page.

Your scanner software may or may not have setting like this. Most of the consumer friendly scanners have basic choices and you'll have to kick around in the options areas to be more selective with your set-up. I'm not even so sure my own flatbad scanner scanner can go as low as bitonal (which I think is 8-bit).

We also move through each and every page digitally erasing the photocoy marks and all other marks that shouldn't be there - this takes real time to do but it's worth it. Those automatic speckle and noise removers just don't do a good job because they tend to remove and lighten the text, especially when it comes to the accent marks.

To create a multipage PDF you need to create a multipage tiff file. That's the easiest way. The only way I know of creating multipage tiff files from separate tiff files is with document imaging software. There could be some sort of freeware utility out there, but I wouldn't know of one because I haven't looked to see what's out there in quite some time.

Textkit uses quite a bit of document imaging, graphic, and file utility software to bring this all together.

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Lex
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Post by Lex » Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:12 pm

Thanks for the tips. I'm not sure if my scanner can do TIFF format or bitonal color; I'll have to check it out.
jeff wrote:I'm still looking for a copy of that book that's in good condition - they're
harder to find.
Is it worth the time to try to scan it, in your opinion, if the book is very badly marked up with pencil and pen, and has a few pages that are so badly frayed that text was lost?
I, Lex Llama, super genius, will one day rule this planet! And then you'll rue the day you messed with me, you damned dirty apes!

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Post by Episcopus » Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:33 pm

I'll need to do that also, with D'Ooge Urbis Viri Romae, 1895 which I recently purchased for 1 cent! ($10 shipping but 1 cent!)

Now that is stealing!

My HCP Prose Composition was in a condition comparable to that of a modern book; it smelled ever so slightly old but was amazing for such an old book.
Last edited by Episcopus on Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Jeff Tirey
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Post by Jeff Tirey » Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:40 pm

Lex wrote:Thanks for the tips. I'm not sure if my scanner can do TIFF format or bitonal color; I'll have to check it out.
jeff wrote:I'm still looking for a copy of that book that's in good condition - they're
harder to find.
Is it worth the time to try to scan it, in your opinion, if the book is very badly marked up with pencil and pen, and has a few pages that are so badly frayed that text was lost?
I don't think it's worth it if there are excessive markings within the text and not in the margins. Marginal writing is ok because it can easily be removed, but marking on, above and below text is much more difficult. If the markings are throughout the book - I don't think it's worth it because it's just too much work. You'll have to go through each page with an erasure. Sometimes this'll tear the pages and it's very time consuming and messy.

You can get good results if the markings are in pencil and you're willing to invest the time. The Selections from the Septuagint was very badly marked with handwritten translations above almost everyline of text. I cleaned that out because the book is so difficult to find.

But it's much easier to keep waiting or pay just a bit more for a book in better condition if you can.
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