Is ουδε a compound negative ?

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Junya
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Is ουδε a compound negative ?

Post by Junya » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:31 pm

μηποτε ουδε τα αλλα φαντασματα νοηματα εισι
I am unsure about the accumulation of negatives.
Is ουδε a compound negative ?
I see in a section of Smyth that ουδε, ουτε, μηδε, μητε are compound, but I'm still not sure.



And someone please tell me how to imput the aspirant (like ho, ha) in this site.
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~tayl0010/polyton ... utter.html

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Skirnir
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Re: Is ουδε a compound negative ?

Post by Skirnir » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:47 pm

Clicked on 'keyboard help':
1. ( rough breathing, ) smooth breathing, + diaeresis, _ macron, - breve
2. / acute, \ grave, = circumflex
3. | iota subscript

and punctuation with ?, :, <<, >>, ``, ' ', comma comma, space right-bracket
phpbb

Junya
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Re: Is ουδε a compound negative ?

Post by Junya » Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:29 pm

Hi, Skimir.
I saw it, but I didn't understand it.

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Re: Is ουδε a compound negative ?

Post by cb » Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:47 pm

hi junya, for ὁ type "o(", and so on. cheers, chad

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Re: Is ουδε a compound negative ?

Post by Junya » Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:23 am

oh, thank you, chad.

C. S. Bartholomew
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Re: Is ουδε a compound negative ?

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Sat Jul 07, 2012 10:37 pm

I am unsure about the accumulation of negatives.
Is ουδε a compound negative ?
I see in a section of Smyth that ουδε, ουτε, μηδε, μητε are compound, but I'm still not sure.
Smyth #827 defines a compound word as a word formed from two or more stems. So μη + δε is a compound, μη + τε, ...

This is not to be confused with double negatives which Smyth calls an accumulation of negatives.


C. Stirling Bartholomew
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Junya
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Re: Is ουδε a compound negative ?

Post by Junya » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:42 pm

Hi, mr. Bartholomew.

By "I am unsure about the accumulation of negatives", I meant me^pote oude in that quotation.
If oude is a compound negative, then this oude is just confirming the negation.
If oude is treated not as a compound negative but as a simple negative, then this me^pote oude is an affirmative.

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Re: Is ουδε a compound negative ?

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:45 pm

If oude is a compound negative, then this oude is just confirming the negation.
If oude is treated not as a compound negative but as a simple negative, then this me^pote oude is an affirmative.
Junya,

Smyth's treatment of negative accumulation (#2760-#2762) is concise and more lucid than Guy Cooper (vol. 2, 67.11.1-14) and they don't agree at all points. According to Copper's "general rule" for "double negatives" (which make an affirmation) "... this occurs with complete clarity only when a compound negative of substantive meaning is followed by a simple (uncompounded) negative." (v. 2, #67.11.2 p1121) Cooper then goes on to qualify this by noting that some simple negatives actually function like compounds of substantive meaning, for example OUC ESTIN hOSTIS which is equivalent to OUDEIS ESTI. Cooper has numerous subtle qualifications (goes on for pages and pages).

So it would appear that the text you quote doesn't qualify for "double negative" status. MHPOTE and OUDE are both compounds and MHPOTE is not a substantive.

C. Stirling Bartholomew
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Junya
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Re: Is ουδε a compound negative ?

Post by Junya » Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:11 pm

Mr. Bartholomew, thank you.
The response got late, I'm sorry, but I lost my precious hat which I have used for 10 years. I was busy about that.





-------------------------

Though I don't tell you whence the quoted sentence was (for, it might be a bother for you to read the full context),
I saw in the dictionary me^pote has a meaning as a conjunction, lest ever, then I wondered how this kind of accumulation of negatives (me^pote oude as lest...not) should work. (I think, after the words meaning lest, oude would be just pleonastic.)
How do you think about that ?
Do you need the context ?
μηποτε ουδε τα αλλα φαντασματα νοηματα εισι

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Re: Is ουδε a compound negative ?

Post by C. S. Bartholomew » Thu Jul 12, 2012 7:17 pm

Junya,



I have the context, see if I can post it here for others to read:

p. 432a13 <Ἢ οὐδὲ τὰ ἄλλα φαντάσματα, ἀλλ' οὐκ ἄνευ φαντα-
σμάτων.>
Ταῦτα τὰ ῥητὰ ἀνατροπή ἐστι τῆς τρίτης συνηγορίας. τρεῖς γὰρ
εἰπὼν συνηγορίας τὴν τρίτην μόνην ἀνατρέπει λέγων ‘μήποτε οὐδὲ τὰ ἄλλα
15.569.29
φαντάσματα νοήματά εἰσι’. ποῖα δὲ λέγει τὰ νοήματα; ἃ εἴπομεν ἁπλᾶ
15.569.30
εἶναι καὶ διὰ τοῦτο ἐοικέναι τῇ φαντασίᾳ. <ἀλλ' οὐκ ἄνευ>, φησί, <φαντα-
σμάτων>, τουτέστιν ἀλλ' οὐ χωρίς εἰσι φαντασίας· ὥστε διὰ φαντασίας
15.570.1
γίνονται τὰ νοήματα, οὐ μὴν ταὐτόν ἐστι φαντασία καὶ νοῦς. πλὴν ὅμως,
φησίν, ἡνίκα τὰ πρῶτα νοήματα νοῇ, οὐ κέχρηται ὀργάνῳ τῇ φαντασίᾳ,
ἐπὶ δὲ τῶν δευτέρων καὶ τρίτων κέχρηται. ἀλλ' οὖν οὐ ταὐτόν ἐστι φάν-
τασμα καὶ νόημα· τὸ μὲν γὰρ φάντασμα ἔνυλόν πώς ἐστι, τὸ δὲ νόημα
15.570.5
ἄυλον. ἰστέον δὲ ὅτι ἐν τῇ θεωρίᾳ καὶ ἄλλα τινὰ ἐκινήσαμεν, ἀλλ' ἐπειδὴ
ἐπιπολαίως αὐτὰ ἐθεωρήσαμεν, ἔδοξεν ἄνωθεν ἀναλαβεῖν τὸν λόγον· παλιν-
δρομεῖν γὰρ κρεῖττον ἢ παρελθεῖν τι. ἐν οἷς ἡ πρᾶξις σὺν θεῷ
πληροῦται.


The TlG citation:

Joannes Philoponus Phil., In Aristotelis libros de anima commentaria (4015: 008)
“Ioannis Philoponi in Aristotelis de anima libros commentaria”, Ed. Hayduck, M.
Berlin: Reimer, 1897; Commentaria in Aristotelem Graeca 15.
Volume 15, page 569, line 29

I am looking it over and will try to address your question later. CSB
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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