der Roman

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vir litterarum
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der Roman

Post by vir litterarum » Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:56 pm

Does anyone know the etymology of the German word for novel? Is it in any way linked to Rome, and, if so, how?

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Post by Essorant » Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:44 am

Yes, it comes from Old French <b>Romanz</b> from Latin <b>Romanicus</b> from <b>Romanus</b> from <b>Rome</b>.

vir litterarum
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Post by vir litterarum » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:39 am

Do you know how it came to mean novel?

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Post by Essorant » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:21 am

Indeed, it is basically a loosening of the original meaning "Roman-like, of Romans, of Rome, etc" so that it eventually no longer means what the word itself literally specifies, but metaphorically generalizes much beyond, and then just seems more or less to mean "tale". From there it is logical to imagine how it may be stretched further to mean "novel".<pre></pre>

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Post by Kasper » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:08 am

In Dutch the word ‘roman’ is also used for ‘novel’, according to http://www.etymologie.nl/ its etymologie is:

Roman = ‘medieval epic tale in verse about the adventures of a knight’ [1642]; ‘tale in which the simple life in the country is idealised’ [17th century], ‘realistic adventure story’ [17th century], ‘poetic history about the fates of a special person, with attention to the character description’ [1847].

Lent from the French “roman?, ‘tale written in folk language’ [1155], ‘invented story’ [16th century], ‘impassioned love story’ [1659], from older ‘romanz’, “folk language? [ca 1125] developed from vulgar Latin ‘romanice’, “the Roman way?, from ‘Romanus’, “Roman?. This word initially related to the Gaelic-Romanic romanticised tale in contrast to those of the Germanic barbarians. When in the 12th century the literature in the folk language acquired terrain, a new contradiction began: the French folk language opposed to that of the Latin of the educated class; subsequently ‘roman’ came to mean “in Roman or Old-French written tale’.

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Post by annis » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:09 am

The various cognates of "romance" in the Romance languages were the term for the local Latin-derived (but not Latin) languages. Tales of chivalry and romance (in the current sense) were in Romance rather than Latin, and the language name expanded to include the genres written in it.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by vir litterarum » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:26 am

Thanks for the info. That etymology is fascinating.

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Post by Estoniacus Inoriginale » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:23 pm

Romanice - pronounced early on as [ro'ma(:)nitse] in vulgar Latin or Lingua Rustica Romanica. In the eastern parts (including Italy), romanice was pronounced like in Italian - [ro'ma:niche], like the word church. That's what I think...
OINOM ANNOM STVDIAVEI DINGVAM LATINAM OREIGENEBOS VARIONS
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Post by loqu » Sat Oct 18, 2008 9:09 am

That [ts] cluster for 'c' sounds me too Germanic or Slavic... but I may be wrong.

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Post by Estoniacus Inoriginale » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:25 am

There is no way that western Romance languages had the same use of c before e and i as in Italian or Romanian. It is common knowedge that TS was a very widely used pronunciation of Medieval and vulgar Latin. Gaius Iuuulius Tseeesar printseps imperaator romaanus.... :) BTW I am well versed in most usual Latin pronuncations.
OINOM ANNOM STVDIAVEI DINGVAM LATINAM OREIGENEBOS VARIONS
HANCE SICNATOVRAM VIDETE ET REDITE

ITEM BOLVNTAS BIXET BERITAS BIVAT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxc0qxl4 ... age&fmt=18

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Post by Estoniacus Inoriginale » Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:29 am

In Old French and Old Spanish ts was used in the case of c before e and i. Hence the French use of it as an s in Modern French...
OINOM ANNOM STVDIAVEI DINGVAM LATINAM OREIGENEBOS VARIONS
HANCE SICNATOVRAM VIDETE ET REDITE

ITEM BOLVNTAS BIXET BERITAS BIVAT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxc0qxl4 ... age&fmt=18

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Post by loqu » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:14 pm

I never meant that it had the same sound as in Eastern Romance (that is obvious), but 'ts' sounds too strange to me.

'Ts' sound was never the sound of c in Old Spanish (don't know about French). It was rather the sound of ç, not the same letter.

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Post by Estoniacus Inoriginale » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:40 pm

Well, wikipedia:
Voiceless alveolar affricate (/ts/): represented by the letter ç.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Spanish
OINOM ANNOM STVDIAVEI DINGVAM LATINAM OREIGENEBOS VARIONS
HANCE SICNATOVRAM VIDETE ET REDITE

ITEM BOLVNTAS BIXET BERITAS BIVAT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxc0qxl4 ... age&fmt=18

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Post by loqu » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:20 pm

Estoniacus Inoriginale wrote:Well, wikipedia:
Voiceless alveolar affricate (/ts/): represented by the letter ç.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Spanish
Same I said in the previous post.

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Post by Estoniacus Inoriginale » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:41 pm

Then we agree... ts.
OINOM ANNOM STVDIAVEI DINGVAM LATINAM OREIGENEBOS VARIONS
HANCE SICNATOVRAM VIDETE ET REDITE

ITEM BOLVNTAS BIXET BERITAS BIVAT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxc0qxl4 ... age&fmt=18

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