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lozzic
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Hello! or should I say Salvete!

Post by lozzic »

Hello I registered today and thought it would be a good idea to introduce myself to this community, I am from the UK.

I have always had an interest in language, history and especially philosophy. One of the languages which always intrigued me was Latin since it plays an integral part in the three subjects I just mentioned. I am currently studying A level philosophy (I am considering taking this at degree level) and Latin quotes do pop up quite frequently, unfortunately (and annoyingly for me :) ) however I almost always have to turn to the translation in the notes section of whatever I am reading in order to understand it. I personally feel (and I am aware this is a commonly held fact) that in the case of translating languages much of the original meaning is lost. This fact also makes me want to at least get an average understanding of Latin in order to be able to understand quotes, concepts etc. in the way they were intended to be read by the philosopher, author etc. as opposed to having to accept someone else's translation which is rather like looking at the world through frosted glass :lol: .

I am quite impressed by the resources I have found on the web and more specifically on this site related to learning Latin. I hope I do better this time than previous attempts :roll: , the beginning is always the most difficult hurdle.

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thesaurus
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Post by thesaurus »

Good to have you! Where are you from in the UK? What sort of philosophy are you interested in?

lozzic
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Post by lozzic »

hello, nice to meet you thesaurus, I live in Derbyshire. As for philosophy, if I am to consider myself to have a true interest in philosophy (which I do) philosophically speaking I ought to say that all philosophy interests me (which it does) period/full stop. :lol: but that's not very informative, aside from joking however currently I am reading two books (one I am studying at A level philosophy) that being 'Beyond Good and Evil' by Friedrich Nietzsche and the other being an interesting book on the philosophy behind Scientism which is a philosophy which first shows its self in Descartes (although the term Scientism had not been coined or taken in to account) basically the book looks at the infatuation and often over valuing of science over philosophy. If your interested the book is called 'Scientism Philosophy and The Infatuation with Science' the author is Tom Sorrel.

Going back to Nietzsche which I mentioned earlier he quotes Latin quite frequently along with the occasional French and even Ancient Greek. On top of that the book is an interpretation nightmare considering the fact that there is what I just mentioned plus the fact that for non Germans the rest of the text is translated from German. In other words reading it from my perspective (English), and English being my only language (at the moment) the whole thing is either translated (the German parts) or in another language (the Latin, French, Greek etc. quotes).

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Post by Turendil »

Nietzsche like Kierkegaard depends a great deal on the translation for us non-native speakers. My advice I would try Walter Kaufman he seems to be the best authority.

Just so you know in case you didn't Nietzsche unlike his Zoarastian counterpart was a classical philologist.

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thesaurus
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Post by thesaurus »

I'll have to look into those scientism resources. I learned a little about that in a philosophy class of mine. We looked at logical positivism (or "illogical positivism" as my professor calls it) and how many of its premises are rooted in modern scientific thought.

From what I can tell it's the similar to scientism. It's premise is that claims are only meaningful insofar as they can be scientifically tested, and everything that can't be tested in this way is meaningless. It immediately dismisses religion, metaphysics, various brances of ethics, and all sorts of stuff. Unfortunately it's only a premise and nothing more, and it gives no argument for why we ought to accept it... but that didn't stop lots of scientists and philosophers from buying into it.

I think it's funny that your translation of Nietzsche doesn't bother to translate the non-German quotes, at least in text. If there's one thing I can't stand, it's the height of pretention that is untranslated quoting. You get it especially in pre-1900 writing that loves to throw in French and Latin. I even see it in modern novels, which is incredibly frustrating.

In the preface to a biography of Cicero that I'm reading, the author mentions that previous translators liked to use French for Cicero's Greek writing, while translating the Latin into English. Supposedly this was supposed to reflect the cultural analogy between Rome and Greece. I still think it's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I'm sure English readers really appreciated having to up the translations of the translation they were already reading...

lozzic
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Post by lozzic »

Yes I have two translations of 'Beyond Good and Evil', the copy I am studying is a translation by Marion Faber which is quite up to date. What I mean by this is the fact that the wording is in a modern style, I can't quite put my finger on it, in some ways it is advantageous in others I find it annoyingly anachronistic. One way it is advantageous is in making up for the fact that a lot of the tricks and so on that Nietzsche used in his actual writing style, what I mean is the fact he was a grammatically very good and rhythmically etc. it was good (I'm not brilliant at understanding grammar in its technical terms :lol: ). When I say "making up" I mean that in this translation the grammatical flow seems to be well done, for example at the end of the book, the section known as "From High Mountains: Concluding Ode/Epode" is as it says an Ode and it seems to flow well rhythmically in this translation. My other translation is by R. J. Hollingdale, this one is an older translation and seems to hold more to an old-fashioned style and uses old-fashioned and more sophisticated words and phrases which I do like and it seems to make it feel more authentic (since language is dumbed down these days and somehow it doesn't seem to suit the way I can imagine Nietzsche writing). As for Kaufman I may try out a copy of his translation, thanks for the advice.

I new Nietzsche was in to languages but I have never really read in to that aspect of his biography, that is very interesting him being a Classical philologist.

Yes if I remember correctly this book on Scientism talks a fair amount about Logical Positivism since it is one of the fundamental aspects in Scientism, although it tends to be more characteristic of the modern forms of Scientism, those of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. In fact it refers to an interesting (but scary) idea that a man called Neurath has where he refers to Metaphysics as a "childhood disease" and says that "Every child can in principle learn to apply the language of physicalism correctly from the outset" (which sounds like brainwashing to me). What he means by this is that children could be taught a purified language which would contain traditional words but omitted words that resisted translation in to the preferred forms of physicalism. He gives examples of such words that could be omitted some of which are 'norm', 'transcendental', 'categorical imperative', 'intuition', 'immanent' and 'reality'. By doing this Neurath believed that children could be free of senselessness and that their language could not be corrupted by philosophy. By doing this, later in their lives they could become acquainted with academic philosophy and would perceive philosophy as a foreign and historical subject.

My 'Beyond good and evil' does translate the non-German quotes but only in the notes section, they are left in their original untranslated form in the actual text.

Yes thesaurus your last paragraph you wrote there is interesting, I didn't know that, it is pretty stupid though doing that since English and French, although derived from Latin (which in turn had parts derived from Greek) are by no means Latin and Greek :lol: .

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Post by Turendil »

the untranslated quotes in my humble opinion serve as a reminder of the universality of a classical education. Also, they were my first spurs towards learning latin and greek. I like the idea.

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Post by thesaurus »

Turendil wrote:the untranslated quotes in my humble opinion serve as a reminder of the universality of a classical education. Also, they were my first spurs towards learning latin and greek. I like the idea.
I may have come off to strongly. Don't get me wrong, I like people working with the original language of their source. What gets me is when they don't offer you a translation of their quote because they assume their readers know Latin and French. Nabakov did a lot of this in Lolita, and there were no translations of the abundant French. But maybe it was supposed to be the narrarator making a further subtle point about Americans...

lozzic
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Post by lozzic »

Turendil wrote:the untranslated quotes in my humble opinion serve as a reminder of the universality of a classical education. Also, they were my first spurs towards learning Latin and Greek. I like the idea.
I agree, I also agree with your last post thesaurus.

One writer that does what you don't like thesaurus is Fredrick Copleston http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Copleston he was a Jesuit Priest who wrote a 9 volume "History of Philosophy" of which I have three volumes. His writing can be complicated and assume previous knowledge of philosophy but they are very well written even though on his own admission they look at philosophy from the standpoint of a Roman Catholic they are well balanced and fair. However one problem is that he very rarely translates the quotes of which there are many in Greek, Latin, French and German!

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