Got an "okay" from Perseus

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mingshey
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Got an "okay" from Perseus

Post by mingshey » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:42 am

Hi,
I got an okay for my request to use the Greek text for my compilation of Euclid's Elements. :D
Thanks for writing. We are currently working on a new version of Euclid which will feature completely new drawings and a restructured text.
If you wish to host your own text, you may of course do so. We cannot assert any copyright over the Greek text. Be sure to send us the link and I'll forward it to the programmer working on the new version of Euclid.

Best,
Lisa


> I have been searching for Euclid's Elements in Greek and founded in
> Perseus Digital Library. But the drawings crucial for understanding the
> text were all missing. So I decided to draw them myself, and I recently
> finished them. (The Euclid's Elements is not as hard as the literary
> works of other ancient authors. But the drawings are very crucial in
> understanding the directions and proofs.)
>
> I don't think that a presence of an inert, text version of Elements
> would diminish the use of Perseus Digital Library's language tools. And
> with drawings incorporated in the text, it could draw more people to
> Perseus. Since computer screen is not a good place to read books, and
> moreover, without the drawings it is very hard to grasp the idea in
> Elements. But you could regard it the other way.
>
> If it is not against your principal goal of running the invaluable
> Perseus Digital Library, I wish you give me a permission to use the
> Greek e-text of Euclid's Elements to TeX and compile a figured version,
> and to distribute it freely for the public. Or please just take a look
> at it before you decide. Since your email server does not let
> attachments through, I do not attach the file in this email. But please
> let me know if you have another route to take it for the examination.
> The file size is about 1.37MB.
>
> Or if it is against your policy for me to distributed such a version
> freely on my own, please just let me send you the compiled document and
> you decide if you should host it on your own site or not. I just want to
> share the result of my hard work on the drawings with as many people as
> possible.
>
> Best.
>
> Mingshey.
and here's the final work.

http://blogfile.paran.com/BLOG_17207/20 ... 5_elem.pdf

I'm going to ask jeff if he's going to host it on Textkit.
Last edited by mingshey on Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Got an "okay" from Perseus

Post by annis » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:50 am

mingshey wrote:Hi,
I got an okay for my request to use the Greek text for my compilation of Euclid's Elements. :D
Mingshey, that's beautiful!

Isn't LaTeX nice? :)
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Re: Got an "okay" from Perseus

Post by mingshey » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:53 am

annis wrote:
mingshey wrote:Hi,
I got an okay for my request to use the Greek text for my compilation of Euclid's Elements. :D
Mingshey, that's beautiful!

Isn't LaTeX nice? :)
Thank you. :D

LaTeX is not nice. It's amazing! :D

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Post by Geoff » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:00 am

Mingshey, that is awesome!!!!! Before I started studying Greek I didn't realize what math works were available in Greek. Perhaps someday I'll be proficient enough in both Math and Greek to read this.

Is math a hobby, work or both for you?

Is Textkit going to host this work?

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Post by mingshey » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:07 am

Thanks.

It's like a hobby. But I'm not so well versed in math. Just enjoying some of the fun sides of math. And you don't have to have a deep knowledge to understand Elements. You just prepare a ruler and a compass and play with it, as directed in the book. :)

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Post by Jeff Tirey » Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:10 pm

That's an awesome looking document!

I use to play around with LaTeX about 4 years ago but I haven't touched it in a long time. A few of Textkit's early classical ebooks were published with LaTex. Perhaps it's time again to use it. The Greek font is very nice looking. I got interested in LaTex by reading an article that featured Knuth's career and in it Dr. Knuth discussed the mathmatical difficulties of typesetting.

Will we host it? We'll have to clear the copyright. I'll PM you.
Last edited by Jeff Tirey on Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Geoff » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:37 pm

What is LaTex? I'm scared to google it. :oops:

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Post by annis » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:48 pm

Geoff wrote:What is LaTex? I'm scared to google it. :oops:
LaTeX. It's a huge set of macros that sits on top of TeX - as in τέχνη.

It's a sophisticated document production system, mostly beloved of mathematicians and scientists because it does such a nice job of setting math, and has for quite a long time now. It's free, available for most computer systems, and probably something only a c omputer geek can love.

The typesetting for the Aoidoi commentaries is pretty complex, so this is going to exaggerate the ugliness, but here's one line from Sappho 31:

Code: Select all

1. \grk{fa'ineta'i moi k=hnoc >'isoc j'eoisin}
\footnotetextC[1]{
\bgrk{fa'inomai} \textit{seem, appear}. \SP
\bgrk{k=hnoc} $=$ \bgrk{>eke=inoc} \textit{that}. \SP
\bgrk{>'isoc -h -on} \textit{equal}; \bgrk{>'isoc j'eoisin} is usually
  taken to mean \textit{equal in luck to, as lucky as} the gods. \SP
}
Several of the commands in there (\SP, for example) are code I myself wrote. So unlike your average word processor, I can write programs in LaTeX. :) This isn't really necessary if you're writing a memo, but it's useful for complex tasks. If he had wanted to, Mingshey could have produced the figures for his Euclid in pure TeX by hand.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by Geoff » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:33 pm

Latex & Tex,

Most fascinating! I'm glad someone knows how to use these wonderful tools, but I'm not worthy. I'd better stick to keeping above water with studying Greek and the day to day needs.

While I confess to Geekiness, I haven't attained to actual Geekship.

Good Work Mingshey; Very nice document. I sent the link to some math prof.s I know.

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Post by mingshey » Wed Nov 17, 2004 12:04 am

Thanks.
Well, I do not know some tricks of LaTeX I needed to typeset the chapter names and titles for definitions and propositions all in Greek. (I could use another Greek typesetting style file(that is a file with macros), but then I got other problems, such as the indices in the diagrams not being typeset in Greek.) So I decided to change them into English.
And I started to think it's too clumsy to put all the propositions in the table of contents. I think I'd better put the chapters only in the toc.(pls give me your opinions on this) And a couple of minor corrections and revisions can be waiting, since I didn't check the consistency of all the indices of the diagram with those in the text.
And there's one thing I wished to add: cross references to related definitions and propositions for relavant statements, as it is in the David Joyce's home page for Euclid's Elements. But it's another big job I didn't dare to start.

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Post by MyIlium » Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:59 am

Ooh! Forget the Iliad, now /this/ is worth learning Greek for.

I'm a math freak, I know.
phpbb

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Post by chad » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:06 am

it's strange but on my computer the greek font comes out really blurry. does anyone know how to fix this? it looks like a lot of work has gone into this so i really want to take a good look at it :) :) thanks, chad. :)

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Post by mingshey » Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:02 am

chad wrote:it's strange but on my computer the greek font comes out really blurry. does anyone know how to fix this? it looks like a lot of work has gone into this so i really want to take a good look at it :) :) thanks, chad. :)
Yes, the Ibycus font I used is not a nice truetype font. It's zig-zaggy when you magnify the letters large enough. And the smoothing feature of the Acrobat reader will show them a bit blurry. But it will print quite okay with a laser printer, at least up to 600 dpi.(FWIW, dots per inch)

There were better greek macros than ibycus, for the text, using truetype fonts. But there were few macro systems that incorporated the letters in the diagram and typeset them in Greek as well as the text.

And the text I used is encoded in betacode. The selection of the LaTeX macro and of the text encoding was made hand in hand. And I didn't know enough to handle unicodes in LaTeX. Or to write euk files with embedded unicode indices on the drawing. And my goal was to get a nicely printed book of Elements. So I thought that was good enough for my purpose.

---

MyIlium, please don't forget Iliad. I don't believe Elements will prove an abundant liguistic and literary resource, though it can give a scientific and logical face of the Greek language. ;)

---

here goes a slightly revised version:
http://blogfile.paran.com/BLOG_17207/20 ... 9_elem.pdf

The table of contents got thinner, including only the chapters, and the title somewhat modified, and a minor correction to the diagram in I.22.

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Post by MyIlium » Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:23 am

I know, but Elements is so much more interesting.
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Post by annis » Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:51 pm

chad wrote:it's strange but on my computer the greek font comes out really blurry. does anyone know how to fix this? it looks like a lot of work has gone into this so i really want to take a good look at it :) :) thanks, chad. :)
This has been a problem between Adobe Reader and the Ibycus font for a while.

Adobe 6, however, seems to do a much better job with bitmapped fonts.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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Post by mingshey » Wed Dec 29, 2004 5:01 am

I got a 30 days tryout version of Acrobat and put bookmarks for each postulates etc. During the process I found out a minor typo, but I decided to let it go like that, for this is not meant to be perfect. Irregularities in the size of figures, typos, English -- non Greek -- titles, silly preface, lack of cross references, there are too many things to touch if I want it perfect.

url edited:
http://blogfile.paran.com/BLOG_17207/20 ... 3_elem.pdf

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Post by rimon-jad » Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:45 pm

:shock: WOW!

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Post by meta » Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:31 pm

Great! :D

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Post by chad » Thu Jan 06, 2005 6:29 am

hi, it's probably been linked before, but here's an online "Greek for Euclid" course which could go with mingshey's euclid:

http://www.du.edu/~etuttle/classics/nug ... .htm#conts

and here's a version of euclid (engligh tho) which uses colour and pictures rather than strings of letters to describe angles, shapes &c:

http://www.sunsite.ubc.ca/DigitalMathAr ... bookI.html

(see the Byrne's links throughout). :)

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Post by swiftnicholas » Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:13 pm

I was just made aware of Mingshey's Euclid document, but I couldn't get any of the links above to work. Are they working for other people? I notice that Jeff was considering hosting the document on textkit; I think it would be a great addition, if everything is in order with the copyright.

~N

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Post by annis » Thu Feb 16, 2006 1:56 pm

He moved it to the WikiMidia:

Blog post

Elements
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;

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wow

Post by elis » Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:40 pm

great work!

this made to want to get my diabetes and triangle and start with it. it definitely goes in my to print out list.
by the way, for my own use, i had made a pdf version of metaphysics (formated in a book size 15X20cm). i dont know if this sounds if interesting - anyway, well done again!

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Post by Democritus » Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:33 am

Wow. Congratulations, mingshey, on finishing this. Nice job. :)

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