What's going on in America?

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What's going on in America?

Post by mingshey » Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:44 pm

http://www.alternet.org/election04/2004/11/002663.html

Weeks ago American goverment was proposing a special act for human rights in North Korea and they are meddling with human rights in China for decades. Now they decided to go Tiananmen themselves?

I try not to bring up or meddle with international politics but when somebody's moving the opposite way he's advertising, ...

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Post by classicalclarinet » Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:56 pm

God. Tanks in middle of LA? Maybe I'm not already paranoid enough if this could happen.

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Post by EmptyMan » Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:23 am

Strange. But it's not somthing to get too negative and all "darn" those Americans over it. What's wrong with wanting an a human rights act in North Korea? America can not do everything, the world expects us to stop human rights attrocities in China and Saudi Arabia, and we would if we could. America has done a heck of a lot for this world and I get annoyed by the lack of gratitude. And they had tanks man, so what, the protestors were probably pretty raudy, they did not kill anybody or put them in a torture camp, that's far from a human rights violation. It seems to me you were just looking for some excuse to criticize those "hypocrit" Americans.
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Post by mingshey » Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:15 am

There's no need to find in America the excuse for criticizing some hypocrite Americans. And in many cases it is simply lack of care for foreign people rather than a hypocricy. But it is always believed that the American government always cared for its own people at the least, which my government do not very well. And it was one thing I counted as to America.
We could say to our government to do things American government does to their people. Now what do we have to say? Tanks are a very malicious show off for unarmed citizens. A threat to crush them into a meat and blood. You know what military force is trained to react when their own safety is challenged. Shoot back with whatever they have in hand. And this time it was tanks. Not a plastic shield and a club, or tear gas, or water jet. Ok, you pick out a gun when you argue with your friend and say "I won't shoot you with this, so you go on talking."

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Post by William » Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:46 am

EmptyMan wrote:America has done a heck of a lot TO this world and I get annoyed by the lack of gratitude.
Fixed your post.

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Post by EmptyMan » Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:17 am

mingshey wrote:There's no need to find in America the excuse for criticizing some hypocrite Americans. And in many cases it is simply lack of care for foreign people rather than a hypocricy. But it is always believed that the American government always cared for its own people at the least, which my government do not very well. And it was one thing I counted as to America.
We could say to our government to do things American government does to their people. Now what do we have to say? Tanks are a very malicious show off for unarmed citizens. A threat to crush them into a meat and blood. You know what military force is trained to react when their own safety is challenged. Shoot back with whatever they have in hand. And this time it was tanks. Not a plastic shield and a club, or tear gas, or water jet. Ok, you pick out a gun when you argue with your friend and say "I won't shoot you with this, so you go on talking."
Yes it was an excuse to criticize Americans. What do you say to your government, you ask. You say exactly what you have been saying "be more like the americans", one town out of millions of cities is hardly enough to scar the image of the entire country, beseides what attrocities were commited? None. The could have been many reasions to use tanks, it might have intimidated the people so the would not start a riot and start looting. And nobody was threating to "crush them to meat and blood" if they had killed the protestors with a tank there would have been an outrage. And you know the American gov. cares for its people, or maybe they are secretly wanting up to hurt us. :roll: I am not one for conspiracy theories.
There's no need to find in America the excuse for criticizing some hypocrite Americans. And in many cases it is simply lack of care for foreign people rather than a hypocricy.
What? Millions freed in Iraq, millions liberated in Afghanistan, brought down the soviet union, brought down the Berlin Wall, we send more money to the Sudan Crisis than any other country, liberated Kuwait from Sadam, helped destroy hitler,helped stop Japan, America has spent 400 billion dollars on foreign aid since WWII. Before 9/11 even happened Afghanistan was scheduled to receive $174 in aid. And could you demonstrate how Americans are such hypocrites for helping people? And don;t give me that bull about buying from china or saudi arabia, we have to buy from those bafoons and if we could topple their goverenments we would.
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Post by EmptyMan » Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:19 am

William wrote:
EmptyMan wrote:America has done a heck of a lot TO this world and I get annoyed by the lack of gratitude.
Fixed your post.

William
Lol. Such honor for the country that provided you with a chance to be whatever you want, get a home, education,food, car, bladdy, blady, blah. Typical liberal negativism.
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Post by classicalclarinet » Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:45 am

Americans fail to see MANY times that yes, it IS a superpower, and it has to act accordingly. One cannot take pride for being the most powerful contry on earth and at the same time take "Foreigners, pah, mind your own besiness cause you have no right to criticize us" attitude. Of course, this should be reciprocal, but America, being a superpower, has an extra degree of responsibility added.

The thing with the tanks is SYMBOLISM. Tanks are the ultimate war machines. You don't circle them around like vultures around *peaceful (what the article said) protesters because you think they might get out of hand.

What I find to be the greatest thing about America is the right to self-criticize. This is how you get better. In countries where this is not practised often it tends to get very oppressive.

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Post by Kasper » Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:57 am

Anne O'Hare McCormick wrote: Today the real test of power is not capacity to make war but capacity to prevent it
I won't say America, because it seems a gross generalisation, but Bush fails to understand this.

I believe he is a man of faith and a high sense of duty, but very very naive and certainly not a man with a great insight. I believe he thinks his duty is to keep America safe, and I suppose it is. However, he needs to understand that this cannot be done by just "liberating" any country he feels is a threat. Terrorism is a largely matter of religion and mentality. By attacking countries you strengthen the mentality and faith of terrorists.

As the commander of a superpower Bush tramples around like an elephant in a porcelain cupboard. True greatness is capacity to prevent war and apeace others, not place your will upon them by force. You'd think that after, say, 5000 years of civilisation we'd have learned that violence begets violence, nothing else.

The thing about the tanks is just funny, whatever the idea behind it was.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
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Post by Rhuiden » Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:22 am

The story about the tanks at the protest has the "smell" of being made up. I would think this would have been widely reported if it actually happened, especially if it happened in California.

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Post by annis » Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:26 am

Rhuiden wrote:The story about the tanks at the protest has the "smell" of being made up. I would think this would have been widely reported if it actually happened, especially if it happened in California.
It's LA. I assumed lost movie extras.
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Re: What's going on in America?

Post by Democritus » Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:27 am

mingshey wrote:Now they decided to go Tiananmen themselves?
My impression, after seeing the film, is that the tanks just happened to be driving by, on their way someplace else. Or they may have been part of the protest.

I doubt very much those tanks were called in by the police, as part of an enforcement activity against the protesters. If something like that had happened, then it would be front page news this morning. The military has no legal authority to take action like that. Those were probably show tanks on their way back from a parade. (If you were a cop, and you were calling in tanks to suppress a crowd, don't you think you would first stop the passing auto traffic on the street, so that the tanks would have room to maneuver? Cops can stop traffic, they do it all the time.)

If the police want to put a crowd like that under control, they can do it easily, certainly with no tank support. I didn't look hard, but I didn't see a single uniformed police officer in that film.

Tiananmen was a nasty event, a lot of people died. Let's not belittle that trajedy by comparing it to this little costume party in L.A. ;)

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Post by mingshey » Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:25 am

EmptyMan wrote: Yes it was an excuse to criticize Americans.
Simply no. It is about your government. I don't categorize Americans in a group.
What do you say to your government, you ask. You say exactly what you have been saying "be more like the americans", one town out of millions of cities is hardly enough to scar the image of the entire country, beseides what attrocities were commited? None.
You're missing the point. It's not about what people in a small town did. It's about what world's biggest super power government did to his own people in a small town.
The could have been many reasions to use tanks, it might have intimidated the people so the would not start a riot and start looting.
Could be that. A peaceful antiwar protest turning into a rioting and looting. Very probable.
And nobody was threating to "crush them to meat and blood" if they had killed the protestors with a tank there would have been an outrage.
There would have. I agree about the possibility that the tanks have been there for completely independent reason. But is it very ususal that tanks come and go in a city like LA with no specific reason, to say, lose its way and wander around?
And you know the American gov. cares for its people, or maybe they are secretly wanting up to hurt us. :roll: I am not one for conspiracy theories.


At least I believe so. And I hope it's true. But the presence of the tank before a crowd protesting one of the government's big job is not a threat? Don't pull my leg.
What? Millions freed in Iraq, millions liberated in Afghanistan, brought down the soviet union, brought down the Berlin Wall, we send more money to the Sudan Crisis than any other country, liberated Kuwait from Sadam, helped destroy hitler,helped stop Japan, America has spent 400 billion dollars on foreign aid since WWII. Before 9/11 even happened Afghanistan was scheduled to receive $174 in aid. And could you demonstrate how Americans are such hypocrites for helping people? And don;t give me that bull about buying from china or saudi arabia, we have to buy from those bafoons and if we could topple their goverenments we would.
Who's saddam Hussein and Osama bin Ladin? Old dogs of America. And what did American governments to the Japanese 731 squad in Manchuria which used people for horrible experiments? Take the results in exchange for exempting them from the trial of the war criminals. But those thing are not what I'm discussing here. It's natural that American government works for America's interest. A capitallist country needs its market. And nobody wants an economical breakdown of a country that's most heavily armed. Nobody can complain about America's investment to broaden its market. So this is not the topic of this thread.

I brought this up because it was so shocking that it happened in America. And it is more shocking that an American should take this for granted and say it's nothing.

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Post by mingshey » Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:43 am

I admit lost extras stopping by to watch (and possibly cheer) the protesters is a feasible story.

By the way, if(or IF) there are more people who hates America, the more it is striking that America's caring for its own people. You get strong impression at the strong love for its cubs if a lion is fiercer and deadlier. But because it is so strong, the watchers-by cannot help but watch carefully if it shows a strange behavior.

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Post by Geoff » Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:48 am

We're not sure that LA is actually part of america. In the 60's it was taken over by space aliens and began a whispering campaign to take over our nation. BTW the mothership landed in Boston. 8)

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Post by William » Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:52 am

annis wrote:It's LA. I assumed lost movie extras.
It may just have been lost Marines. This user post (found where the video is at mingshey's link) may go a long way toward explaining it:

===============================================

Lost LAVs

Hey guys. Some people aren't going to be convinced that this was NOT an attempt to stifle expression, but this sounded fishy to me from the start.

Thursday is Veteran's Day and today is the USMCs 229th birthday.

The vehicles in question are LAV-25s, not Strykers or Coyotes. They're operated exclusively by the USMC.

Military vehicles don't have route-finding GPS like a new Lexus. Military systems are generally far, far behind civilian systems. The primary processor in the F-22, for example, is about as powerful as an old 486. It takes years to develope these vehicles and they've got to commit to an operating system pretty early and go ahead and build it. The primary issue military GPS is still the old PLGR system from the mid-90s. No Marine LAV has a system up front programmed with maps of downtown LA.

If they were going to use armored vehicles for crowd suppression, the LAPD has V-100s and there are Army National Guard units with armor closer than Camp Pendleton, the nearest Marine base.

Tempest in a teapot, fellas, it's not to-the-baricades-with-your-Molotov-cocktails-time yet. Just some lost Marines.

Author: slowroll
Posted: Wednesday November 10, 2004 09:43 AM

===============================================

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2004/11/11 ... php#118964

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Post by classicalclarinet » Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:16 am

Ah there you go then. Now I dont need to be paranoid.

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Post by tdominus » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:40 am

Maybe we could do a poll. Which of these two options is true:

* America is responsible for everything wrong with the world and does not have any right to interfere with other countries no matter how interconnected they are.

* America has never done anything wrong or damaging to the world. Everyone wants to be an american and live there.

?

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Post by mingshey » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:30 am

Yeah, much a do about nothing was it. :oops:

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Post by Mongoose42 » Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:10 pm

I find it interesting that a small comment can arouse so much passion and strong emotion. Regarding the US's action in the world, I would tend to agree with EmptyMan. However, I did not get the impression that Mingshey was attacking the US in his post. I take it as a compliment that a situation like this is considered shocking in America, I won't worry until it becomes common place.
I think that many people around the world would agree that the foreign history of the US is not perfect, but it has done good for the betterment of the global community. In the same way it has made mistakes, but it is not the capitol of the antichrist.
Using this it helps to not assume that all critics of the US government, be it foreign or local, are attacks to be repelled with fervered rhetoric.
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Post by EmptyMan » Fri Nov 12, 2004 1:32 am

Mongoose42 wrote:I find it interesting that a small comment can arouse so much passion and strong emotion. Regarding the US's action in the world, I would tend to agree with EmptyMan. However, I did not get the impression that Mingshey was attacking the US in his post. I take it as a compliment that a situation like this is considered shocking in America, I won't worry until it becomes common place.
I think that many people around the world would agree that the foreign history of the US is not perfect, but it has done good for the betterment of the global community. In the same way it has made mistakes, but it is not the capitol of the antichrist.
Using this it helps to not assume that all critics of the US government, be it foreign or local, are attacks to be repelled with fervered rhetoric.
I agree that I got a little over heated, but mingshey's first post sounded very neagtive to me. This is what I got from it, "Americans used tanks in an anti-war protest so they should not be hypocties and try to bring up a human rights act in korea."
Could be that. A peaceful antiwar protest turning into a rioting and looting. Very probable.
Sure is.
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Post by Democritus » Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:22 am

Could be that. A peaceful antiwar protest turning into a rioting and looting. Very probable.
Sure is.
No, it is not very probable. There is no evidence that anyone was looting during that event in L.A. Who said anything about looting?

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Post by EmptyMan » Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:37 am

Democritus wrote:
Could be that. A peaceful antiwar protest turning into a rioting and looting. Very probable.
Sure is.
No, it is not very probable. There is no evidence that anyone was looting during that event in L.A. Who said anything about looting?
What are you talking about? All I said was that the tanks could have been brought out to discourage raudy behavior and things like looting, to which mingshey replied with sarcasm. I used that picture to show it is justified to say peace protestors do loot. I can testify that a tank would deter me from looting a building, so it seems a tank is an effective way of scareing the baffon protestors into acting reasonable so not to ruin it for the other protestors.
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Post by 1%homeless » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:13 am

Did anyone actually watch the video? Rhuiden's assumption is pretty close. I'd like to just say exaggerated though...

http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/tanks-on-la-streets.mov
It's LA. I assumed lost movie extras.
Extras don't drive tanks, transportation dept. does the driving to locations. :wink: Also, they are the least likely to get lost too. Although their attitudes about parking are sometimes totalitarian, they won't run you over ...unless you get in their way and block them from parking :twisted:

EDIT:
Oh, you mean the protesters... silly me. :P Well, they are herded pretty well and aren't likely to get lost. Food is provided so they don't need to leave the stage set or the location set. :D

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Post by Lucus Eques » Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:12 am

The tanks are easy to answer. The arseholes walked out in the middle of the street and were nearly hit by that bus in the beginning; they easily could have caused a car accident, and when they happen in LA they aren't small. You'll notice the police in the background (almost entirely edited out, thanks to the maker of the video) had been there and looked unable to control the mob. The National Guard were deployed to insist the fools keep distance from the road so they wouldn't cause hundreds of thousands of dollars in insurrance loss or the lives of drivers or their own pathetic lives.

In Tianamen, the tanks rolled over the protestors. Kinda different.
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Post by Phylax » Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:10 pm

brought down the soviet union, brought down the Berlin Wall,
I am most puzzled by your thinking this, Emptyman. I thought it was Russians brought down the Soviet Union, and Germans the Berlin Wall. Can't remember very many Americans around at either event, or was I just not looking in the right direction?

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Post by Emma_85 » Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:58 pm

Ah well, he's probably talking about all the spies, you know - fighting communism like in the movies or something :wink: .
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Post by Lucus Eques » Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:39 pm

Di boni, how insulting! Please remind me whose air force airlifted 2.3 million tons of food and supplies to the West Berliners during the blockade? Or who supplied NATO with the means to defend itself against invasion for four decades?
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Post by Emma_85 » Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:49 pm

The Americans did not single headedly tear down the Berlin Wall though, the east German revolutionists did and then there was the round-table revolution. Plus East and West would not have been united were it not for the coming election Kohl had to face in Germany back then.
No ones saying they did nothing, but to just say the American brought down the Berlin wall is a bit insulting too all East Germans who went onto the street and deposed their dictatorship.
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Post by mingshey » Sat Nov 13, 2004 5:58 am

EmptyMan wrote: I agree that I got a little over heated, but mingshey's first post sounded very neagtive to me. This is what I got from it, "Americans used tanks in an anti-war protest so they should not be hypocties and try to bring up a human rights act in korea."
Human right is not something you can give to people by forcing the government of a country. The people must fight for it on their own. Minding about the situation of other countries can be your passtime. But it's only when your own right is secured. I won't call it hypocricy IF it was a real tank deployed to crush the protesters, to meddle in the other countries affairs. I would call it just a folly. Hypocricy is something different. It's called as one when you pretend to do something for others goodness when it actually also serves your own interest.
What are you talking about? All I said was that the tanks could have been brought out to discourage raudy behavior and things like looting, to which mingshey replied with sarcasm. I used that picture to show it is justified to say peace protestors do loot. I can testify that a tank would deter me from looting a building, so it seems a tank is an effective way of scareing the baffon protestors into acting reasonable so not to ruin it for the other protestors.
Where's their pickets and signboards? But let me believe you that the piece protesters do loot occasionally. But I can't see what a tank could do about looting people. Blow up the stores so they cannot loot? Or kill them all? Or crush them? Not very likely as we already have agreed. Then looters wouldn't mind anything if there isn't a police squad around that outnumbers them. A couple of war machine is a poor choice for controlling a crowd effectively.

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Post by Phylax » Sat Nov 13, 2004 11:58 am

Di boni, how insulting! Please remind me whose air force airlifted 2.3 million tons of food and supplies to the West Berliners during the blockade?
Certainly, it will be my pleasure to remind you, good Lucus :
The U.S. action was given the name Operation Vittles, and the British one was called Plain Fare.

Hundreds of aircraft, nicknamed Rosinenbomber ("raisin bombers") by the local population, were used to fly in a wide variety of cargo items, including more than 1.5 million tonnes of coal. At the height of the operation, on April 16, 1949, an allied aircraft landed in Berlin every minute. The aircraft were supplied and flown by the United States, United Kingdom and France, but crews also came from Australia, Canada, South Africa and New Zealand to help. Ultimately, 277,804 flights would be made and 2,325,809 tons of food and supplies would be delivered to Berlin.
The reference is from Wikipedia. You will notice a number of other countries apart from the US were involved.

I remain a bit puzzled, however: the Belin Wall was dismantled 40 years after the the Berlin Airlift. Could you help me with why you see such a direct connection between the events?

Best wishes,

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Post by Phylax » Sat Nov 13, 2004 12:50 pm

Or who supplied NATO with the means to defend itself against invasion for four decades?
I think I may be able to help here, too, Lucus. According to a table produced in 1999 (http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=2976&sequence=4) the US contributed 25%, the remaining 75% being contributed by the other 18 member nations. The two other big contributors were Germany (20%) and the UK (16%) (decimals rounded).

Yours was an interesting question, but equally one might ask "Who helped the US lessen the risk of Soviet nuclear missiles overflying the Pole and landing on American cities?"

Cordially yours,

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Post by EmptyMan » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:07 am

Phylax wrote:
brought down the soviet union, brought down the Berlin Wall,
I am most puzzled by your thinking this, Emptyman. I thought it was Russians brought down the Soviet Union, and Germans the Berlin Wall. Can't remember very many Americans around at either event, or was I just not looking in the right direction?

Cordially,

Phylax
Without pressure from the Americans and the Cold War I do not think this would have ever happened.
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Post by Lucus Eques » Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:42 am

mingshey wrote: Human right is not something you can give to people by forcing the government of a country.
Um ... yes it is; quo vide Germany and Japan.
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Does the Governent care?

Post by Jefferson Cicero » Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:11 am

Well, the government didn't care when it's own Union army burned entire cities to the ground in the 1860's, and destroyed food supplies and means of food production in vast areas of the South in order to reduce the population by starvation.

It didn't care about the victims at Waco, Texas in 1993, who also were faced with armoured vehicles. Instead, it slandered their leader with false charges of child molestation, even producing accusers and 'witnesses' of dubious credibility.

What about the fire-bombing of German cities in the 1940's, when entire residential districts, which were not important strategic targets, and were populated mainly by women, children, and the elderly, were incinerated, and they were burned alive by the hundreds of thousands?

What about what was done to the Indians of the Great Plains?

Sure, America has accomplished some good things, but it has done some evil things as well. Americans can rarely take full credit for the good, and we must not turn a blind eye to the evil. Slavery in the South, Nazism, wierd cult leaders, primitive native cultures, none of these things justified mass murder carried out by the U.S. government.

The American government has too often meddled in other nation's affairs when it should have stayed home and minded it's own business. If it had done so, then regardless of whether the South were an independent country or not, slavery would have disappeared from the South on it's own without an unnecessary war, a better peace arrangement would have come about at the end of WWI, and there would have been no Nazism in Germany, and no WWII. We made the Cold War possible by interfering unnecessarily in Europe's affairs in the first place. America has thrown the course of world events off course, and caused great damage. Time for that to end.

America is not some enlightened superior nation that does no wrong and keeps saving the world. We have never actually saved the world from anything. The self-righteous arrogance of those Americans who believe that silly myth is one reason Americans have lost respect in the world. We are not the 'greatest nation in history'. We are just a nation like any other, with many faults of our own that we need to work on instead of trying to remake the whole world in our own warped utopian image.

What evil will result on the long run from America's invasion of Iraq and it's effort to remake that country into Californiaq? As for tanks in LA, regardless of the reason they were there, they were at Waco eleven years ago so why is anyone surprised? Taste of the future, perhaps?

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Phylax
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Post by Phylax » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:01 pm

Without pressure from the Americans and the Cold War I do not think this would have ever happened.
It could be argued that the pressure of the Cold War was what made the USSR actually last so long - almost 70 years. In history the threat of attack has often bolstered regimes that have outlived their usefulness - it will be interesting to see if this turns out to be the case in present day America.

It is important to realize, too, that other countries were arrayed against the USSR (including in latter years, interestingly, Communist China).

It should also be noticed that America's disapproval of a county's regime does not automatically cause its collapse. Have a look at Vietnam, for example, or Cuba.

I've alluded to the Vietnam War; to Jefferson's excellent list of less-than-glorious episodes in America's troubled history, may I add the Phillipine-American War of 1899 -1913? To give you a taste of what horror this was, here are excepts from Wikipedia:
During the war, 4,234 American soldiers were killed and 2,818 were wounded. Philippine military deaths are estimated at 20,000 while civilian deaths numbered in 250,000 to 1,000,000 Filipinos. [...] U.S. attacks into the countryside often included scorched earth campaigns where entire villages were burned and destroyed, torture (water cure) and the concentration of civilians into "protected zones". Many of these civilian casualties resulted from disease and famine. Reports of the execution of U.S. soldiers taken prisoner by the Filipinos led to disproportionate reprisals by American forces. Many American officers and soldiers called war a "nigger killing business". During the U.S. occupation, English was declared the official language, although the languages of the Philippine people were Spanish, Visayan, Tagalog, Ilocano and other native languages. Six hundred American teachers were imported aboard the USS Thomas. Also, the Catholic Church was disestablished, and a considerable amount of church land was purchased and redistributed.

In 1914, Dean C. Worcester, U.S. Secretary of the Interior for the Philippines (1901-1913) described "the regime of civilization and improvement which started with American occupation and resulted in developing naked savages into cultivated and educated men."
Dean C. Worcester was talking of a country which had been civizilized (in Western terms) from at least the beginning of the 19th century. The Wikipedia article goes on to say that United States military created two service decorations which were known as the Philippine Campaign Medal and the Philippine Congressional Medal. Even were I qualified to do so, these are not medals I'd care to sport on my chest!
phpbb

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Jefferson Cicero
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Philipines

Post by Jefferson Cicero » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:19 pm

Phylax is right on target concerning the Pillipines. I first learnt of the atrocities of that war from Mark Twain, who was bitterly opposed to that war and unleashed both barrels against it. He even rewrote the 'Battle Hymn of the Republic' to show the realities of that war. He also wrote of a small island in the Pacific, population 200 or so, where the U.S. Marines murdered every single inhabitant. I cant recall the name of the island. All this was in the book, 'A Pen Warmed Up in Hell', a collection of Twain's political writings.

We also cant forget the conquest and seizure of the Kingdom of Hawaii at about the same time. By right, in a de jure (if not de facto) sense, Hawaii is still an independent country, as is the CSA, and of course I cant fathom why Puerto Rico wasn't granted independence years ago. The U.S. need not rattle on to the rest of the world about 'captive nations'. It has plenty of it's own to set free.

As for the plains Indians, it is interesting to note that the murderous policies carried out against them during the 1870's and 1880's had their genesis during the conquest of the Southern States in the 1860's. The slaughter of the buffalo to starve the Indians out was based on the campaigns carried out against food supplies in the South.

Interestingly, the black slave population suffered the worst from these atrocities. The Union army treated them as subhuman, and often ran them out of the only homes they had ever known, the slave cabins on the plantations. This was not so much liberation as simple eviction. The 'freed' slaves had no where to go and no way to feed themselves, in areas already laid waste in efforts to burn and starve the white population out. It is estimated by some scholars that as many as one of every six former slaves died of starvation and disease related to malnutrition in the first couple years after the war ended. The local whites helped them as much as they could, but that was little since they also were starving. The U.S. leaders 'liberated' the slaves (which Southerners would have done on their own anyway in no more than thirty years time) by killing one sixth of them. The only reason they did that was to present a very critical Europe with a righteous excuse for their invasion of the South. Now all we hear about that war is 'Glory, Glory, Hallelua, His Truth Is Marching On' propaganda, one of the biggest whitewashes in all history.

Now we have the example of the FOX TV anchorman Bill O'Reilly, who, when the bombing was fiercest in Iraq and civiliams were dying quite rapidly, pontificated in arrogant, condescending, and self-righteous tones to the masses that we were actually 'liberating' the Iraqis and when the bombing was over, we would feed them and rebuild their country, out of the goodness of our hearts, because, he said with a self-satisfied smirk, 'that's the kind of people we are'.

Dear God! This is the face America now presents to the world! :oops:

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mingshey
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Re: Philipines

Post by mingshey » Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:43 pm

Jefferson Cicero wrote: Dear God! This is the face America now presents to the world! :oops:
Don't worry. I saw the other face, too.
http://www.sorryeverybody.com/gallery/1/

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Kopio
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Re: Philipines

Post by Kopio » Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:23 am

mingshey wrote:Don't worry. I saw the other face, too.
Did PeterD send you that link?? :P

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