What Language Will William Study Next?
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What Language Will William Study Next?
I have finally decided to be honest with myself. I have no motivation to study Latin. I have tried, I really have, but for the moment the study leaves me cold.
Rather than fight Latin inertia any further, I've decided to move on.
But I'm having difficulties choosing between the two languages that have always been high on my queue of "Languages you should really study more closely some day." Namely, Arabic and Persian.
Both have a vast literature in both time and subject. My main interest is again in the classical poetry of these languages, Abu Nuwas, al-Mutannabi, Hafez, Sa'di, Khayyam.
Arabic is hard! Persian is less so.
I can't decide. I doubt the poll will decide me on the matter, but I was curious to see what others had to say.
Rather than fight Latin inertia any further, I've decided to move on.
But I'm having difficulties choosing between the two languages that have always been high on my queue of "Languages you should really study more closely some day." Namely, Arabic and Persian.
Both have a vast literature in both time and subject. My main interest is again in the classical poetry of these languages, Abu Nuwas, al-Mutannabi, Hafez, Sa'di, Khayyam.
Arabic is hard! Persian is less so.
I can't decide. I doubt the poll will decide me on the matter, but I was curious to see what others had to say.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Latin, i think, unlike the two languages you suggest, bears unparalleled fruit in its literature and its lucidity of expression. it would really be a travesty if a man as scholarly as yourself passed through life without having mastered Greek's sister tongue. besides, with comprehensive knowledge of Greek, Latin should pose little difficulty.
~D
~D
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Persian and Arabic both hold the same role Latin until quite recently did in western Europe. They bear parallel fruit, more than 1000 years of literature for Arabic, a bit less for Persian, which was the lingua franca for much of the Muslim world until fairly recently, when Arabic once again asserted itself.whiteoctave wrote:Latin, i think, unlike the two languages you suggest, bears unparalleled fruit in its literature and its lucidity of expression.
I was through intensive Latin in college, and have read the standard authors - 10 years ago, so I need review. I don't intend to pass by Latin forever. Just for now. I have time.it would really be a travesty if a man as scholarly as yourself passed through life without having mastered Greek's sister tongue. besides, with comprehensive knowledge of Greek, Latin should pose little difficulty.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Ignoring for the moment the six consonants which occur in no European language I know of, the grammar is quite an amazing thing.Eureka wrote:In what way is Arabic difficult?
I should first mention that Arabic, like the rest of the Semitic languages, bases much vocabulary on tri-consonental roots. So, K-T-B form the nucleus for words related to "writing", so "kitaab" is book, "kataba" is "he wrote" and so on. The root's meanings are changed by various alterations within the root, as well as prefixes and suffixes. So, D-R-S is related to "learn", and "muDRas" is thus a Koran School. This foundation will help a bit to understand some of the difficulties...
For example, plurals. The plural of "kitaab" (book) is "kutub" (books). More astonishing examples: sg. "walad", pl. "awlaad"; sg. "nabii", pl. "anbiyaa'u". And so on. These are called, appropriately, "broken plurals." There are non-broken plurals, but not as many as one might like.
For another example, plurals. Again. Arabic has two genders, masculine and feminine, like French. Broken plurals are grammatically singular feminine for the purposes of adjective and verb agreement.
For example, verb agreement. Arabic has free-ish word order; the default is for the verb to come first, but this isn't required. Second and third person conjugations mark for gender, so there's a 2m and a 2f conjugation, in both singular and plural. When the order is VS, the usual, the verb agrees with the subject in gender but not number. When the order is SV, stricter agreement is in play.
These are just a small taste.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Ever so slightly ignorant there David Do you know Arabic? If so, then you may indeed slap me. Though I would probably (and ignorantly in the same way) agree with you. The way of Latin expression is to me unparalleled by anything that I have yet encountered. It is odd and wonderful.whiteoctave wrote:Latin, i think, unlike the two languages you suggest, bears unparalleled fruit in its literature and its lucidity of expression.
~D
Annis my boy, I share your sentiments somewhat. Excellent thread.
Arabic is related to Hebrew and has a ..er..crippled alphabet and sounds evil. Persian is..er..farsi and does not sound like a cat fight in the ghetto. Persian music is occasionally beautiful. More people than one would think speak this. Communities are large in odd places like Sweden and Germany then obviously USA and er...twn persikwn terra...
Arabic is inflected like a truck carrying many A&G and intensive H&Q books. That's one inflected mother of a trucker. Our dear Raya knows it so you would bond therewith were you to do it. The alphabet, as if it does not look already like a crippled Hebrew Ketubah inside a crushed glass, has as I'm sure you know annis all the initial middle final sheets of paper. I am just expressing my
As for difficulty, I don't think that it would matter to you at the end of the day. For example, I can not speak french though can do all the other 3 things. For I never use it. I use latin in the house see. (Da mihi mater aquae plenum poculum!) As long as you practise it you such an undisputedly talented trekker of a linguist will faire bien.
You should have considered more languages. What about er...zulu. Oh yes no resources. Ich tried. If you want to learn a language near to Persia but slightly better haha learn Armenian. The alphabet rules and the isolated language is CLOSEST TO INDO EUROPEAN WIR HABEN 8 CASES!
If you include the vocative which is just always the same anyway as nominative. Or indeed classical armenian, but that's just for reading the bible. tee hee I gave up chinese. Stupid pictures. I was never any good at geometry. I feel like a loser dedicating myself to this Certamen Vaticanum composition.
In the times 10C when the Islamic world was ahead of the western losers in the respect of medicine, many of Galen's lost Latin texts were recovered finally thence and translated from Arabic into Latin. Arabic was very important thus during the renaissance.
Anyway. Er. I can understand dutch. It's like english but slightly german. Just change th, s to z, f to v and add a few eek, ch and der in and you're basically at it. if you want dutch just use Dutch in 3 months Hugo. 1 month you will do it.
zee ich eem zpeekinch van der Bert Skiphol Airpreeertvanderch
Er...I have been considering Arabic for practical purposes. With international terrorism being controlled by all those guys from the arabic speaking community, it would be handy to understand them and perhaps negotiate. I actually mean that seriously although it came out terribly.
Don't do french unless you want to sound homosexual, though Italian is well...but it's pretty much french. Don't mess with those slavic languages or Russian.
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- benissimus
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I voted Persian. It just seems more exotic, and if it is easier as you say, then you will learn it quickly and have time to learn more languages (or enjoy the fruits of your labor). Are you considering the modern or ancient forms of the languages?
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae
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Nothing. But I took this statement in the way the rest of the post was written, e.g: "Arabic is inflected like a truck carrying many A&G and intensive H&Q books. That's one inflected mother of a trucker."Br. Devon wrote:And what the devil does the speaking of a language have to do with sexuality?Episcopus wrote: Don't do french unless you want to sound homosexual....
As a funny gush of words.
But...What am I doing? I am defending Episcopus and we all know that he is quite capable of doing this himself.
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My #1 problem, the bane of my life, the cause of much misery, frustration and lamentation at the mean and stingy brevity of a human lifetime: there are about a billion things that interest me. How I order my interest is the hard part.Timothy wrote:In all honesty, I can't hear why you’re interested at all. I mean, what is it that you're after here?
It just seems to me that if you answer that question you won’t have a problem. No other answer will serve.
I also run the constant risk of hopping from one subject to the next without getting the depth of insight I might like. Textkit has done wonders for my Greek focus.
In any case, as I mentioned in the first post, both Arabic and Persian have been high on my list of Things to Learn for some time. Now I have choose which comes first. I'm leaning toward Persian - and I'm pleased to see it's holding its own - because it, like Greek, has a long history of poetry, from epic to personal lyric. And all without broken plurals...
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Well, both are very conservative languages. Literacy means using the classical form of the language, even today. Arabic, being spread out more, has splintered into more distinct modern forms. I get the impression modern Farsi (and Dari even more, at least phonologically) is very conservative indeed.benissimus wrote:Are you considering the modern or ancient forms of the languages?
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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The Arabic alphabet has to be one of the most beautiful creations of humanity. My walls are adorned with calligraphy in both Chinese and Arabic.Episcopus wrote:Arabic is related to Hebrew and has a ..er..crippled alphabet and sounds evil.
I love Arabic pop music. And classical. I realize many people find the tuning systems offputting.Persian is..er..farsi and does not sound like a cat fight in the ghetto. Persian music is occasionally beautiful.
These are at the top of the list at the moment. I'm more likely to try for Swahili than Zulu. I've always wanted to try Navajo, but from what I gather the grammar will make Arabic seem like Esperanto.You should have considered more languages.
You have never heard me speak English. It is much to late for me to worry about this now.Don't do french unless you want to sound homosexual,
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Bert wrote:Hi william, another option would be Dutch.
Some of my more, shall we say, excitable friends keep themselves in a high lather trying to decide where they will move if Bush II is reelected. Canada is popular, of course, but so, for some reason, is The Netherlands. I remind them of Dutch, and they decide Canada is the best course.
I'm not actually trying maximizing the difficulty of the languages I study. I'm always delighted to jabber in Esperanto.Dutch is likely not dificult enough for you though
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Am I the only one terrified at the thought of Episcopus negotiating with terrorists??With international terrorism being controlled by all those guys from the arabic speaking community, it would be handy to understand them and perhaps negotiate.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”
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Hmm... I voted for Persian... don't know why, but from very brief encounters with Persian and Arabic, I somehow was biased towards Persian. There was no logic in my vote. ...Maybe logic should take a break and emotional irrationality take over for this decision? But it's funny no matter which aparatus I use, logic or emotions, I still tend to be "choosing" after making my choices...
Oh yes, I recommend a book called the "paradox of choice."
Oh yes, I recommend a book called the "paradox of choice."
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Ayuh. That one I know.annis wrote:...the mean and stingy brevity of a human lifetime...
Ayuh. That one too. Too broad, too deep, too short.annis wrote:…the constant risk of hopping from one subject to the next without getting the depth of insight I might like.
Persian, poetry, yeah, why not?
Just bear in mind, you aren’t allowed to leave here.
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Re: What Language Will William Study Next?
I voted for Persian.
Of the two, I would be more interested in Persian. And I also know some speakers.
Since they're both high on your list, you're eventually going to learn both... why don't you just choose the one that interests you a smidgen more at this moment?
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hahaannis wrote:
You have never heard me speak English. It is much to late for me to worry about this now.
I was actually thinking of Swahili too as a fair language. It's very likely one day that I at least try it...
Or you could pick 6 languages and roll the die. Live by the die. That's if you're a generally undecided person who makes often uneducated guesses. That is not you.
Wouldn't you think a classics site might favour the Persians? Well it depends if you hold a grudge against them being a part of the greeks.
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I was going to vote Arabic and then I thought no, I don't have a reason to choose Arabic and then I saw this and that's my reason! Although it seems like the general consensus is Persian. I actually have a book in French "lire en arabe" that I think is advanced but I'm not sure. Ah, used book stores1%homeless wrote:Hmm... I voted for Persian... don't know why, but from very brief encounters with Persian and Arabic, I somehow was biased towards Persian. There was no logic in my vote. ...Maybe logic should take a break and emotional irrationality take over for this decision? But it's funny no matter which aparatus I use, logic or emotions, I still tend to be "choosing" after making my choices...
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I would say Persian, because this could be a link for you to study Avestan, a closely related language and the language of the Avestas, great literary works in themselves. Avestan was to the Persians what Latin was to Europeans. You can actually get an Avestan Grammar freely on the web, if I could only remember or find the address.
However, Arabic is a great language, and I would not discourage you from studying it. You can get an Arabic grammar from the Internet Archives. Just type in something like 'Arabic Grammar' in their site search engine and you should find it. Dover Publications even has a comparative grammar of Arabic, Persian, and (I think)Hindustani.
I would encourage you to persevere in your Latin, even if you take a break to study Persian, Arabic, or even Avestan.
If you want something totally different, check out the Cherokee Nation's online Cherokee language course. Not much literature, but it's so different from Old World languages that I have a hard time getting the vocab down since it doesn't resemble anything I've ever seen before. It's also a beautiful language. Think of the ear pleasing quality of French with the cadence and matter of factness of German. It's something like that, but not really.
Could it be that the reason most people are recommending Persian over Arabic, and think it sounds better, is that Persian, an Indo-European language, sounds more 'familiar' to their Indo-European ears? The first time I heard it spoken, I didn't know what it was. It sounded to me like a European language but not like any European language I'd ever heard. I could tell it wasn't Romance, not Germanic, not Slavic, not Celtic, etc. So it sounded European, yet not European at all. I was so fascinated by this that I had to find out what language it was. Perhaps our ears can recognise a distant relative to our own language on an unconcious level and therefore identify with it easier than they can with the more alien sounding Arabic? Perhaps an Arabic speaker would more easily identify with, say Aramaic, and think it more pleasing to the ears, than a European language?
However, Arabic is a great language, and I would not discourage you from studying it. You can get an Arabic grammar from the Internet Archives. Just type in something like 'Arabic Grammar' in their site search engine and you should find it. Dover Publications even has a comparative grammar of Arabic, Persian, and (I think)Hindustani.
I would encourage you to persevere in your Latin, even if you take a break to study Persian, Arabic, or even Avestan.
If you want something totally different, check out the Cherokee Nation's online Cherokee language course. Not much literature, but it's so different from Old World languages that I have a hard time getting the vocab down since it doesn't resemble anything I've ever seen before. It's also a beautiful language. Think of the ear pleasing quality of French with the cadence and matter of factness of German. It's something like that, but not really.
Could it be that the reason most people are recommending Persian over Arabic, and think it sounds better, is that Persian, an Indo-European language, sounds more 'familiar' to their Indo-European ears? The first time I heard it spoken, I didn't know what it was. It sounded to me like a European language but not like any European language I'd ever heard. I could tell it wasn't Romance, not Germanic, not Slavic, not Celtic, etc. So it sounded European, yet not European at all. I was so fascinated by this that I had to find out what language it was. Perhaps our ears can recognise a distant relative to our own language on an unconcious level and therefore identify with it easier than they can with the more alien sounding Arabic? Perhaps an Arabic speaker would more easily identify with, say Aramaic, and think it more pleasing to the ears, than a European language?
Last edited by Jefferson Cicero on Tue Aug 24, 2004 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Persian uses the Arabic alphabet, too, usually in the very lovely nasta'liq [2] script.klewlis wrote:I picked Arabic because the letters are so lovely.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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If my ambition overcomes my capabilities (always possible) I have no intention of letting that study seriously interfere with my Greek studies.Timothy wrote:Just bear in mind, you aren’t allowed to leave here.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Re: What Language Will William Study Next?
That's what's likely to happen, and was so before I posted the poll.mariek wrote:Since they're both high on your list, you're eventually going to learn both... why don't you just choose the one that interests you a smidgen more at this moment?
The problem is that the "moment" in "a smidgen more at this moment" is measured in minutes.
But Persian still seems more likely for now.
I must say, I had no idea so many people would weigh in on the subject. It's a great distraction. I took the week off to do house work - painting a room, among other things - which I suppose I should get to now. Persian and Arabic can wait a few more hours.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Avestan? I could learn to recite the Gathas.Jefferson Cicero wrote:I would say Persian, because this could be a link for you to study Avestan,
Wait a minute!
Avestan? Classical Aramaic? I sense a conspiracy to turn me into Calvert Watkins. Who will suggest Hittite and Luwian next?
I intend to. Just not now. In the past I was able to read Cicero (that *&#$@ Cataline thing), Livy, etc. Perhaps I should forget about the primers and just start in on Ovid or something. Between Perseus and Textkit I think all my perplexities could be solved easily. But that's for the future...I would encourage you to persevere in your Latin, even if you take a break to study Persian, Arabic, or even Avestan.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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That she has studied Biblical archaeology, perhaps?1%homeless wrote:Well... very early Persian was written in cuneiform... so I'm not sure what it shows that you know.
William S. Annis — http://www.aoidoi.org/ — http://www.scholiastae.org/
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
τίς πατέρ' αἰνήσει εἰ μὴ κακοδαίμονες υἱοί;
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Oooh yes, you're touching on a subject that is very rarely studied, if at all... linguistic esthetics like any other kind of esthetics are influenced by your cultural environment, but it's hard to explain people's attraction to something very alien other than the very fact that it is alien and unfamiliar...Could it be that the reason most people are recommending Persian over Arabic, and think it sounds better, is that Persian, an Indo-European language, sounds more 'familiar' to their Indo-European ears? The first time I heard it spoken, I didn't know what it was. It sounded to me like a European language but not like any European language I'd ever heard. I could tell it wasn't Romance, not Germanic, not Slavic, not Celtic, etc. So it sounded European, yet not European at all. I was so fascinated by this that I had to find out what language it was. Perhaps our ears can recognise a distant relative to our own language on an unconcious level and therefore identify with it easier than they can with the more alien sounding Arabic? Perhaps an Arabic speaker would more easily identify with, say Aramaic, and think it more pleasing to the ears, than a European language?
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lol. a little of that. and I also just read a book on the Sumerians. ;)annis wrote:That she has studied Biblical archaeology, perhaps? :wink:1%homeless wrote:Well... very early Persian was written in cuneiform... so I'm not sure what it shows that you know.
First say to yourself what you would be; then do what you need to do. ~Epictetus
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Why that? While Episcopus confuses the terrorists someone else can be freeing hostages.Quote:
Quote:
With international terrorism being controlled by all those guys from the arabic speaking community, it would be handy to understand them and perhaps negotiate.
Am I the only one terrified at the thought of Episcopus negotiating with terrorists??
that scares me too
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I think you should study both, together. That's what I did with French and Latin. My Latin lagged behind, and still is disabled, but my French grew. You then really know which one to take first, or you do them together.
I tried to acquaint myself with Arabic, using the book "Teach Yourself Arabic". I was under pressure then, so I couldn't learn the alphabet, had to rely on the transliterations, couldn't pronounce those pharygeneals, didn't understand the distinction between the dark consonants and normal consonants, couldn't remember many words (except fayruuz- turquoise), and really couldn't do it.
I'm not acquainted with Persian- it's that Indo-European language, now written with Arabic script, and formerly with all sorts, including modified Avestan, Persian cuneiform, Aramaic...
Links:
Omniglot: Arabic script
Omniglot: Persian script
Easy Persian
Arabic Calligraphy
Arabic Course
Arabic Course (includes colloquial)
Hmmm... Dutch. I dabbled in that for a time, but I wasn't very interested in it at the time; I used the "Teach Yourself" series (again). Hmmm... Hugo's "Dutch in Three Months"... is that like the "Greek in Three Months" one at my local library (it teaches modern Greek)? I wasn't interested much in that either.
[face=Verdana]Paperback
Publisher: Dorling Kindersley; Revised Ed edition (May 1997)
ISBN: 0852853068
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 1,688,223 [/face]
Is that the one?
Avestan looks really weird; it's the language of Zoroastrianism.
Another link for Avestan.
Who is this "Calvert Watkins"?
Ahhh... Wait! I'd like to be good at comparative linguistics.
I tried to acquaint myself with Arabic, using the book "Teach Yourself Arabic". I was under pressure then, so I couldn't learn the alphabet, had to rely on the transliterations, couldn't pronounce those pharygeneals, didn't understand the distinction between the dark consonants and normal consonants, couldn't remember many words (except fayruuz- turquoise), and really couldn't do it.
I'm not acquainted with Persian- it's that Indo-European language, now written with Arabic script, and formerly with all sorts, including modified Avestan, Persian cuneiform, Aramaic...
Links:
Omniglot: Arabic script
Omniglot: Persian script
Easy Persian
Arabic Calligraphy
Arabic Course
Arabic Course (includes colloquial)
Episcope! Turpis est! Honestly, that is quite indecent.Episcopus wrote:Don't do french unless you want to sound homosexual,
Hmmm... Dutch. I dabbled in that for a time, but I wasn't very interested in it at the time; I used the "Teach Yourself" series (again). Hmmm... Hugo's "Dutch in Three Months"... is that like the "Greek in Three Months" one at my local library (it teaches modern Greek)? I wasn't interested much in that either.
[face=Verdana]Paperback
Publisher: Dorling Kindersley; Revised Ed edition (May 1997)
ISBN: 0852853068
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 1,688,223 [/face]
Is that the one?
Avestan looks really weird; it's the language of Zoroastrianism.
Another link for Avestan.
Who is this "Calvert Watkins"?
Ahhh... Wait! I'd like to be good at comparative linguistics.