Conspiracy theories... not so stupid

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Emma_85
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Conspiracy theories... not so stupid

Post by Emma_85 » Sat Mar 06, 2004 1:32 pm

I've often thought these conspiracy theories to be a load of junk, but in the last few years I've started to change my mind. Some are of course rubbish, but there is a bit or sometimes even more than just a bit of truth in them. Maybe my mind is being corrupted by too much information, but I actually believe that whatever I think might be happening behind the scenes is actually nowhere near as bad as what goes on in reality.
What just got me thinking about this again is a discussions in history class on imperialism nowadays. I have a lot of respect for my history teacher, who is one of those who didn't become a teacher just because of the money, but who chose this job because he thought someone should teach these kids something proper (you can easily tell who's only there for the money and is in fact useless at the subject himself and who isn't). Anyway, we were discussing the Iraq war under indirect Imperialist aspects again and my teacher said he thought that the US has probably caught Bin Laden and are just waiting for the elections to present him, so that Bush wins against the democratic candidate.
It sounds stupid, but it has made it's way into the newspapers (and not only newspapers like the Sun!) so there must be something true about it. Things normally don't just appear in the news for no reason.
And all those spying claims...
I was more than just a little surprised to hear these words out his mouth, and he then quickly changed the subject, but I know he does do a lot of research into these sort of things and he always has loads of articles and such like to back up his claims (he did this time too).

Anyway, I just wanted to know what you lot think (if this is an inappropriate subject then feel free to delete it Jeff.... but I think it's really interesting and important too).
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Post by solitario » Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:02 pm

Yeah... now us Democrats here in America have a choice between which Skull & Bones member we fear the least.
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Post by klewlis » Sat Mar 06, 2004 7:57 pm

solitario wrote:Yeah... now us Democrats here in America have a choice between which Skull & Bones member we fear the least.
Just like Canadian politics... we almost always end up voting for the lesser evil... ;)

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Re: Conspiracy theories... not so stupid

Post by xn » Sat Mar 06, 2004 11:40 pm

Emma_85: Presuming that all of the people involved in a secret capture of ibn Ladn* could be persuaded to reveal absolutely nothing about the event (e.g. no inexplicably buoyant moods being expressed in letters and/or telephone calls to loved ones at home), then wouldn’t it have been doubly to the current administration’s advantage to have kept the capture of President Husayn* under wraps as well, revealing both captures within a few days of each other within a couple of weeks of the USA presidential election to maximize the “we got him/’em” effect?

Regarding spying claims, they’re probably true (whatever the specifics of the claims were), since most governments would choose an intelligence agency course of “trust, but verify” with allies and friends as well as with rivals and competitors — surprises are usually unwelcome in halls of power.

solitario: Remember Article II., Section 1. of the Constitution: we the people don’t choose the president — the 535 members of the Electoral College do, and it’s perfectly lawful for each Elector to completely ignore the popular vote, as has happened numerous times in past elections. (Also, as my voting record can confirm, there are more than two political parties in these united States.)

klewlis: Given the current swirling vapours around Martin, what are your prognostications for the coming election? And whither Québec?

xn

* — your Arabic transliteration may vary :wink:

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Post by MDS » Sun Mar 07, 2004 7:16 am

xn: Despite everything Chretien did that Martin is now doing his utmost to distance himself from, there is no way IMO that the Liberals will not return to power. Maybe the fact that most Canadians will continue to vote Liberal despite all the scandel reflects the sad state of politics here. I'd have to agree that it does.

As for the Quebecois, they will do their own thing, they always do... :?

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Re: Conspiracy theories... not so stupid

Post by klewlis » Sun Mar 07, 2004 7:22 am

xn wrote: klewlis: Given the current swirling vapours around Martin, what are your prognostications for the coming election? And whither Québec?
I do not trust Martin at all--I was very afraid when it became apparent that he was going to replace Chretien because Martin appears to have no integrity or ethics... his shipping business and its shady practices being the main giveaway. I also hate the fact that the first thing he did was start sucking up to Bush. So now when all the scandals arise, and he tries to pass the buck and look like the good guy, I trust him less and dislike him more.

Nevertheless, being the fatalistic Canadian that I am, I'm quite sure that Martin is in for the long haul and will win the next federal election. So I am going to vote conservative--not because I think they can (or should) win, but because I'm hoping the conservatives can at least take away the liberals' majority government... and if they can do that, then Martin will not have free reign to destroy my country... we can have a more painful, prolonged death at the hands of the Americans instead. ;)

As for Quebec... nothing much ever seems to change. Every so often we have a separation referendum, nothing ever comes of it, and things go on as before. I'm sure the same will continue at least for now. :)

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Post by Emma_85 » Sun Mar 07, 2004 12:31 pm

Somehow it scares me that xn is so far the only one to disagree ...

And the capture of Saddam would have been nearly impossible to keep a secret, because the Kurdish intelligence guys wouldn't have kept quiet, and the US also had to something to win by saying they'd captured him. They needed to show the Iraqis that they were capable of doing this at least and to show the international community, that Saddam did not get away.
Another reason for not telling everyone straight away if they had caught Bin Laden is that maybe they wanted to torture some information out of him first...
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Post by klewlis » Sun Mar 07, 2004 3:21 pm

I really doubt that they have caught bin laden. That sort of thing is just begging to be leaked... there's no way they could keep it a secret. and since my mom is a huge conspiracy theorist (to unhealthy proportions), she would have sent me 6 articles on the matter by now... ;)

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Post by Emma_85 » Sun Mar 07, 2004 7:08 pm

Well it hasn't exactly been kept a secret, otherwise it wouldn't be in the press... that's my teacher's argument at least. And it's true, it was in some serious papers.
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Re: Conspiracy theories... not so stupid

Post by xn » Sun Mar 07, 2004 10:43 pm

MDS: Much as has happened in American and British politics in recent years, the Liberals seem to have coöpted many planks of past PC platforms. Does a federal Liberal vote just mean “As if I’d vote for the Conservatives or the NDP!”, or do the federal Liberals really represent mainstream Canadian political views? From what I’ve gleaned from Eastern Townships radio, it seems like Charest wasn’t a “politics as usual” candidate for Québec; what’s your take on him?

klewlis: Shareholder interests in a given corporation often don’t align with society’s interests in general, so Martin’s shipping brouhaha isn’t surprising. The mors Americana may well be more prolonged, but it will be eased with 500+ channels of even more nothing to watch. :wink:

Emma_85: Why would the Kurdish intelligence guys not keep quiet? The alignment of W’s goals with their own is quite close, so it would have been counterproductive to have gone their own way at that stage. “Crusader” occupiers aren’t going to win most Iraqi hearts and minds in any case, even with scores of reviled Baathist heads on pikes (or their judicial equivalent). There are many kinds of tortures, and many methods leave no physical evidence. If there be intent to torture ibn Ladn, then there would be no need to hide the event of his capture; a couple of months in publicly announced “isolation” would provide ample opportunity.

Which newspapers provided support for your teacher’s argument? Would their articles be viewable online? (It’s OK if they’re not in English.)

As an aside, hearing of someone teaching “for the money” is almost unthinkable in the States, where it’s not one of the more lucrative professions …

xn

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Post by MDS » Sun Mar 07, 2004 11:41 pm

XN: The federal Liberals have so moderated and adjusted their electoral platforms over the past few decades that they no longer represent anything close to true Liberal ideology. All of which you of course were aware of. To me, a vote for the Conservatives or NDP is indeed a vote against the Liberals. As for Charest, I'd agree he wasn't a "politics as usual" candidate for Quebec. However, in the long run it didn't really matter did it?

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Post by Kalailan » Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:24 pm

It might be true that there is a conspiracy; the question is: can we do anything about it?
the answer is: no.
we should accept things we can't change.
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Post by Emma_85 » Mon Mar 08, 2004 8:18 pm

The story was in the British newspaper "The Sunday Express", but it doesn't seem like the article is online, though it's quoted often enough, if you search google.
And even though the "Sunday Express "can by no means be called a really, really serious newspaper, I still trust it more than say "the Times" for one very good reason: it's one of the few remaining independent newspapers, it's owned by Richard Desmond and not by Rupert Murdoch, who owns nearly every other paper it seems.
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