Orpheus et Eurydice

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Episcopus
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Orpheus et Eurydice

Post by Episcopus »

I have posted this topic, regarding Virgil - Orpheus et Eurydice, in the Open Board since it requires some analysis of the English rather than the latin. Here is the English for the Latin that I have covered so far. I should be very grateful if some one might answer any of the questions below!

1. "When the evening or the winter rain drives them from the mountains"
In what sense do you think is when, is habitual or a sudden part of the plot rather than description which is implied by the habitual action?

2. "Mothers and husbands, and the bodies of great-hearted heroes
Who are finished with life, boys and unwed girls,
And youths put upon the pyres before their parents faces,"
Are all these mothers husbands... and youths put on the funeral pyre? It's a bit random because the "Mothers..." starts right after the "When the evening..." line above.

3. "Whom the black slime and the ugly reeds
And the hateful marsh enclose around with its sluggish course
And the nine tributaries of the Styx [lit. the Styx nine times interflowing] confine."
Can any one at all point out what is happening here? A picture? Is there a funeral pyre in the middle of a marsh? And I don't understand at all what's going on with the tributaries :shock:

4. "And the Furies with sea-green snakes woven in their hair,"
Who were the furies? How is this Latin "caeruleosque implexae crinibus angues Eumenides" rendered as the above? Indeed in the book with just the Latin that I have, they gave a rare translation of this line.

5. "Indeed, the very abodes were spellbound, as were the innermost regions of Letum (Death)
And the Furies with sea-green snakes woven in their hair,
And Cerberus opening wide his three mouths, holds still,
And the revolving wheel of Ixion has stopped in the wind. "
Does this mean that the abodes, the regions of Death, the Furies were all spellbound? By the River Styx with her nine tributaries? Or the funeral pyre?

He (Orpheus), consoling his sorrowful love with his hollow lyre,
Would sing of you, sweet wife, you with him on the deserted shore,
You as the day was dawning, you at its dying.
He even went into the jaws of Taenarus, the high doors of Dis [=Pluto],
And the grove which was gloomy with dark terror,
And came to the souls of the dead, and the terrifying king,
And the hearts not knowing how to be softened by human prayers.
But the slender shades, stirred by the song, and the ghosts of those lacking light
Were moving from the deepest resting-places of Erebus,
As many as the thousands of birds which hide themselves in the leaves,
When the evening or the winter rain drives them from the mountains,
Mothers and husbands, and the bodies of great-hearted heroes
Who are finished with life, boys and unwed girls,
And youths put upon the pyres before their parents faces,
Whom the black slime and the ugly reeds
And the hateful marsh enclose around with its sluggish course
And the nine tributaries of the Styx [lit. the Styx nine times interflowing] confine.
Indeed, the very abodes were spellbound, as were the innermost regions of Letum (Death)
And the Furies with sea-green snakes woven in their hair,
And Cerberus opening wide his three mouths, holds still,
And the revolving wheel of Ixion has stopped in the wind.
And now Eurydice retracing her steps had escaped from all the hazards
And having been given back was coming to the airs above
Following just behind (for Perspehone had given this condition),
When a sudden madness seized the heedless lover -
Indeed it was forgivable, if the souls of the dead knew how to forgive:



Finally a hopeful request that does relate to Latin to some extent: is there any website that teach hexameter? I recall one a long time ago that I found from textkit. It was good.

Many thanks for your patience!

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benissimus
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Re: Orpheus et Eurydice

Post by benissimus »

Episcopus wrote:
1. "When the evening or the winter rain drives them from the mountains"
In what sense do you think is when, is habitual or a sudden part of the plot rather than description which is implied by the habitual action?

I would interpret it as a one time action, though it doesn't have to be. Also take note that a "rain" can also be "a rain of arrows".

2. "Mothers and husbands, and the bodies of great-hearted heroes
Who are finished with life, boys and unwed girls,
And youths put upon the pyres before their parents faces,"
Are all these mothers husbands... and youths put on the funeral pyre? It's a bit random because the "Mothers..." starts right after the "When the evening..." line above.

I think a better way to put this, based on the text, would be
"Mothers and husbands, and the bodies of great-hearted heroes
finished with life, their sons and unwed daughters,
and the youths (the sons and daughters) put to the pyres before the parents' faces"


3. "Whom the black slime and the ugly reeds
And the hateful marsh enclose around with its sluggish course
And the nine tributaries of the Styx [lit. the Styx nine times interflowing] confine."
Can any one at all point out what is happening here? A picture? Is there a funeral pyre in the middle of a marsh? And I don't understand at all what's going on with the tributaries :shock:

This is obviously symbolical, the Styx being the river through the Underworld; the dead being confined within the Styx's grasp?

4. "And the Furies with sea-green snakes woven in their hair,"
Who were the furies? How is this Latin "caeruleosque implexae crinibus angues Eumenides" rendered as the above? Indeed in the book with just the Latin that I have, they gave a rare translation of this line.

Furies Greek & Roman Mythology. The three terrible winged goddesses with serpentine hair, Alecto, Megaera, and Tisiphone, who pursue and punish doers of unavenged crimes.

5. "Indeed, the very abodes were spellbound, as were the innermost regions of Letum (Death)
And the Furies with sea-green snakes woven in their hair,
And Cerberus opening wide his three mouths, holds still,
And the revolving wheel of Ixion has stopped in the wind. "
Does this mean that the abodes, the regions of Death, the Furies were all spellbound? By the River Styx with her nine tributaries? Or the funeral pyre?

I'm not sure, I don't have time to look at it closely right now, but imagine that if the Furies are in such shock at something, it must indeed be a heinous crime.
Last edited by benissimus on Tue Feb 17, 2004 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

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klewlis
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Post by klewlis »

1. Sounds like the hiding of the birds is a recurring thing, but analogous of a one-time event (the ghosts of those lacking light Were moving from the deepest resting-places of Erebus).

2. I believe he is continuing his list of people who are listening and spellbound. He detours a couple of times but I see the souls of the dead, the terrifying king, the hearts not knowing, mothers and husbands... etc.

3 and 4. I believe benissimus is right.

5. Everyone in the abodes and in fact the abodes themselves are spellbound by the music of orpheus... are they not?
First say to yourself what you would be; then do what you need to do. ~Epictetus

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Post by Ulpianus »

Nice translation of a lovely passage.

I think ubi in (1) is "whenever", i.e. the birds flocking off to safety is something that has often happened. This makes the simile work.

I do have a question though. What do you make of orbis in the line Ixonii vento rota constituit orbis? As a noun it seems surplus to requirements given rota; as an adjective I can't make it work gramatically. I'm sure there's a simple answer, but my stupidity is bugging me.

Episcopus
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Post by Episcopus »

Yes the orbis is rather strange. I translated it literally and made some sense of it hopefully: "Ixonii vento rota constituit orbis" - "The wheel of the rotation of Ixion stopped (in) the wind" [orbis being genitive]. So basically in a way it's a rotating wheel on which is Ixion who raped Juno or whatever :lol:
It's slightly unnecessary I do agree, probably for the meter :)

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Post by Ulpianus »

I'm sure you're right, and it must be genitive of orbis -is. Strange sense though: one would rather expect orbis rotae (with orbis nominative) than rota orbis, and the position of Ixionii near rota lulls one into assuming it is a genitive associated with rota when it really turns out to be a genitive piled on another genitive to be found only at the end of the line. Ahh Virgil ...

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Post by Ulpianus »

I managed to find a decent commentary (Mynors) which confirms that you are indeed right; and also (happily for me) agrees that it is odd. He suggests "Ixion's whirling wheel". He has a nice turn of phrase, saying that V has put the elements together "to please himself and not the logicians".

Episcopus
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Post by Episcopus »

Yes indeed his tendency to write strange Latin is similar to mine albeit on a greater scale. I do not dwell on it, but discard it as something egocentric of Virgil who seems to care not for his readers.

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benissimus
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Post by benissimus »

Could be a sort of descriptive genitive, i.e. "an orb of a wheel" as in "you are a monkey of a man"
flebile nescio quid queritur lyra, flebile lingua murmurat exanimis, respondent flebile ripae

Episcopus
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Post by Episcopus »

That's interesting...quite strange though...

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Post by Ulpianus »

On your request for a website that teaches hexameter: was this what you were thinking of: Hexametrica (I came across it by chance while looking for something else: it looks rather good).

Episcopus
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Post by Episcopus »

Thankyou so much :D :D :D

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