greek mythology

Thucydides · Post by **Thucydides** » Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:52 pm

can anyone when recommend a good book that covers all the greek myths? they're starting to confuse me...!

Kasper · Post by **Kasper** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 1:46 am

'The Greek Myths - Complete Edition' by Robert Graves is quite good in my opinion.

1%homeless · Post by **1%homeless** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:22 am

I think the most confusing thing about Greek myth is the genealogy. I remember there was an entire book that was just about the genealogies, but I forgot the title...

Also, I wonder if there are any books that teaches ancient greek through the mythologies... that would be fun...

benissimus · Post by **benissimus** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 10:43 am

Bulfinch's Mythology is pretty well reputed, but it does not focus only on Greek.

MDS · Post by **MDS** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 2:46 pm

I would have to second the recommendation for Bullfinch's. For many people this is THE standard myth text.

ingrid70 · Post by **ingrid70** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:26 pm

It's also on the web: http://www.bulfinch.org/

Ingrid, in the possession of an abridged but nicely illustrated version of Robert Graves' Greek myths.

Keesa · Post by **Keesa** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:03 am

I third the Bullfinch recommendation...it's one of my favorites. (I was going to post the link, but I see Ingrid already did.)

I love the site because it's easy to navigate. (Oh-and because I love mythology!

)

chad · Post by **chad** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:42 am

bulfinch's (qualified) suggestion that some greek myths might be derived from the scriptures is a bit hilarious. i've read somewhere that the greeks might have got the idea for a myth about the battle between the gods and the giants from the exposed smashed jawbones of dinosaurs on some greek islands, which can still be found today. i think it was in national geo. the greeks might have got the idea of "slain giants" from these bones, the same way that other cultures have their "slain dragons" myths from the dinosaur bones.

also the tie between the gods and olympus specifically might have come from the fact that, even today still, on mount olympus there are campfire-sized fires burning continuously, and if you blow them out they re-ignite spontaneously. maybe the really early greeks thought that there were invisible olympians living on the hill, and the myths of the gods developed from there. cheers, chad.

annis · Post by **annis** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 1:56 am

chad wrote:bulfinch's (qualified) suggestion that some greek myths might be derived from the scriptures is a bit hilarious.

Not entirely hilarious. I don't know how much the Akkadian, Sumerian, Assyrian, etc., religious texts were available to Bulfinch when he was writing. The Archaic Greek religious world, at least in it's literary representation, shows a lot of near-eastern influence. So perhaps Bulfinch saw parentage where they are instead siblings. Martin West has an entire book on this, The East Face of Helicon.

Certainly Homer is crammed full of near-eastern stories, and even turns of phrase. Terms like "shepherd of the people" are used by Homer, and then disappear from Greek until the Greek world adopts a near-eastern religion, Christianity.

mingshey · Post by **mingshey** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:39 am

annis wrote:Not entirely hilarious.

Yes, look how I saw the story of adam and eve in the encouter of odysseus and nausicaa.

killing of god on the tree is also found in both north myth and egypto-persian myths.

chad · Post by **chad** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 2:40 am

is the phrase "shepherd of the people" near-eastern? it sounds like it might be related to the egyptian culture... the symbol of the pharaoh was the shepherd's crook and flail, and i think he (or she) was called shepherd of the people. egypt and greece of course had strong connections, particularly through crete. these connections are quite interesting, but i think conclusions about parentage in these cases are a bit suspect...

Kalailan · Post by **Kalailan** » Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:38 am

you know, Egypt is near eastern.
or is it not considered so?

i am not sure about the shepherd of the people nick for the pharaohs (by the way, the female pharaohs are outnumbered. no need for the "or she")

the idea of shepherd is likely to orginate in a nomadic culture.

bingley · Post by **bingley** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:06 am

Modern Egypt is considered part of the Near (or Middle) East, but not Ancient Egypt. Don't worry, Egypt hasn't moved over the past couple of thousand years, it's just that modern Egyptian culture is similar enough to that of other societies in the region to make it meaningful to group them together and Ancient Egyptian culture wasn't.

annis · Post by **annis** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:12 am

chad wrote:egypt and greece of course had strong connections, particularly through crete. these connections are quite interesting, but i think conclusions about parentage in these cases are a bit suspect...

Linguists have the nice German term Sprachbund to describe a region where people speaking different languages interact, which leads to interesting similarities in possibly unrelated languages.

I wonder if there's the term Kulturbund, into which we can cram the ancient Near East and archaic Greece.

chad · Post by **chad** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:41 am

hi kalailan, hatshepsut and twosret were 2 women who were pharaohs, and so adopted the shepherd's crook and flail: one to gently lead, one to discipline. hatshepsut in particular was a very impressive pharaoh, concentrating on the internal development of egypt, instead of war-mongering like thutmose iii, so i think "he or she" for pharaohs is justified, just like you might say he or she about e.g. english monarchs... cheers, chad.

Kalailan · Post by **Kalailan** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:06 am

in hebrew, because of the masculine/feminine vocativs, you have to choose between the two when talking to a crowd. the rule is: if there is one male, no matter how many females are about, masculine should be used. i know it is very chauvinistic, but hey, the ancient hebrews were a near eastern culture.

1%homeless · Post by **1%homeless** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:47 am

i know it is very chauvinistic, but hey, the ancient hebrews were a near eastern culture.

lol

Post by **klewlis** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 2:49 pm

Kalailan wrote:in hebrew, because of the masculine/feminine vocativs, you have to choose between the two when talking to a crowd. the rule is: if there is one male, no matter how many females are about, masculine should be used. i know it is very chauvinistic, but hey, the ancient hebrews were a near eastern culture.

however, we are conversing in english, not hebrew. :)

benissimus · Post by **benissimus** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 5:29 pm

English would do that too if it weren't for all the modern political correctness stuff

I really wouldn't mind the changes, but there should be some sort of convention to make up replacement words so we aren't left with awkward, verbose circumlocution. Anyways, that masculine thing must go way back if it is in both IE languages and Semitic.

Lex · Post by **Lex** » Thu Jan 22, 2004 8:24 pm

benissimus wrote:English would do that too if it weren't for all the modern political correctness stuff I really wouldn't mind the changes, but there should be some sort of convention to make up replacement words so we aren't left with awkward, verbose circumlocution. Anyways, that masculine thing must go way back if it is in both IE languages and Semitic.

Lesbians and other assorted feminists have tried to introduce the word "ze" as a gender-nonspecific replacement for "he or she". It hasn't caught on, and I'm neither surprised nor disappointed. I'd rather read or hear the sexist but concise generic "he" than I would either the PC but verbose "he or she" or the bizarre "ze".

Some things I've read say that the "Great Discovery" (that pregnancy is caused by sex), and the overthrow of goddess-worshipping matriarchal cultures by god-worshipping patriarchal ones, both happened about 3500BC. So, yeah, it probably goes way back.

bingley · Post by **bingley** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:01 am

English has devised a way of dealing with this, the use of the singular they/them/their where the antecedent is not precisely known. It would be more common if it were not for the strictures of the grammatically hidebound, who no doubt long for the good old days when thou was the singular form and you the plural. Before you dismiss this as political correctness raising its head again, I would direct your attention to this little article: Everybody Loves Their Jane Austen http://www.pemberley.com/janeinfo/austheir.html

Keesa · Post by **Keesa** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:12 pm

A wonderful article, Bingley! I thank you for bringing it to my attention.

Lex · Post by **Lex** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:19 pm

bingley wrote:English has devised a way of dealing with this

Yes, the use of "he" as the generic singular pronoun when referring to a person of unspecified gender, e.g. "When a person wants to study Greek, he should be prepared to work hard." It's sexist, yes, but that is how the English language works. Get used to it.

bingley · Post by **bingley** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 1:08 am

If someone wants to learn Greek, they should be prepared to work hard.

Perfectly good English, used from Chaucer down to the present day.

waraysa · Post by **waraysa** » Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:37 pm

i also love reading Robert Graves retelling of the Greek myths which i have in a two volume Folio edition.

For something a bit more academic, I would recommend "Classical Mythology" by Mark Morford and Robert Lenardon, Longmans, London and New York. I have the 3rd edition, 1985.

I have found this to be a very useful reference when I have read a myth in my Greek reader and wisch to check it out further. For example, I recently looked up the story of Iphigenia. The book has a whole chapter on the "Mycenean saga" and a very useful famliy tree for the house of Atreus. It has chapters on the GReek Gods, GReek Sagas and heroes, Roman Mythology and Classical n Music and Film.

Kopio · Post by **Kopio** » Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:08 pm

Thucydides wrote:can anyone when recommend a good book that covers all the greek myths? they're starting to confuse me...!

I'm reading Apollodorus' Library right now (in Greek) from the Loeb Library, it covers most of the geneologies and a bunch of the Greek Myths.....it's not too difficult of Greek either.

Helen of Troy · Post by **Helen of Troy** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:46 am

It is so wonderful to witness the thread transformation from Greek mythology to the political corectness of m/f forms in one language.

However, back to Thucydides. Robert Graves is doubted by meny scientists (unfortunately, I say). Mabybe you should try with Mircea Eliade, The guide to world religions. It is good thing to start with, cuz it's giving a somewhat wider picture. For getting deeper into it, I'm using a lexicon of Greek mythology. If you can find something like that, it might work for you as well. These lexions are providing you with all variants of a myth related to a certain god, godess, hero etc.

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