Looking for a memrise collaborator.

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Sohtnirybal
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Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Sohtnirybal » Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:47 pm

Hello everybody

Remember this book Sprechen sie Attisch? "It was discused previously here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10924&p=202105&hili ... ch#p202105 "

Well, I don´t know if you are familiar with memrise app, in any case I think it´s a very useful app to memorize, learn, and in our case I really find it useful for example to learn the principal parts of verbs, and so on. I think that app is really good stuff to get familiar with greek, to memorize the main meanings of particles, prepositions(at least I speak from my own experience, the courses in the app makes you to get much more familiar and to learn vocabulary and main verbs, I think it´s a good stuff to neophytes in antique languagues)

Well, I made from the book -Sprechen sie Attisch- a memrise course, which I think could be really useful to memorize the vocabulary, the expressions and so on. What I´m looking for here is a collaborator, a friend who help me to correct mistakes, to add, for example, alternatives answers, to correct accents and so on and so forth, maybe to add audio files, and comments in general.

On the other hand I take advantage to promote the course and to make much persons study it, and memorize it.

Thanks and hope your answers.
M.

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by donhamiltontx » Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:45 pm

Hi, there. Welcome to the Textkit community and enjoy your stay.

What did you name your course? I can not find anything under Sprechen sie Attisch at Memrise.
ἐς Τροίαν πειρώμενοι ἦνθον ᾿Αχαιοί,
καλλίστα παίδων: πείρᾳ θην πάντα τελεῖται.
Theocritus, Idyll 15

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Sohtnirybal
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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Sohtnirybal » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:35 pm

Thanks, the course is here https://www.memrise.com/course/2204032/ ... ent-greek/ idk why it does not appear, it happens several times

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by donhamiltontx » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:08 am

Okay, I found it using the link you provided. But I still can't find it using the search box. I don't know how Memrise orders the titles of its courses. Perhaps there is a FAQ that I've been too lazy to find.
A trivial point perhaps, but in the title of the course, English should be capitalized as I have just typed it, and "an" should be "and": --> Sprechen Sie Attisch? (English and Ancient Greek)
Note that word has it on another forum I belong to that Memrise is going to put community courses like yours at another location. Here is the site with that information: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 14&t=10133 I myself am signed up at Memrise, but I never received that email. Nevertheless I assume it is true that Memrise will move the user-made courses.
At any rate, best of luck with the course you constructed. I know it took a lot of time and effort.
ἐς Τροίαν πειρώμενοι ἦνθον ᾿Αχαιοί,
καλλίστα παίδων: πείρᾳ θην πάντα τελεῖται.
Theocritus, Idyll 15

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by seneca2008 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:01 pm

I have briefly looked at your memrise course. I commend your industry but the translations into English are hardly idiomatic. “Well, Hello there!” has quite a different meaning in England than you might imagine. “How goes it” a literal translation of the German but utterly unidiomatic. ‘Very nice” is so bland in English that I am not sure it really captures “οὐκ ἄχαρις“.

Have you translated German into English or Greek into English?

This exemplifies the difficulty of translation. Whether you are satisfied with the result will depend on the goal you are seeking to achieve.

Good luck!

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Sohtnirybal » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:43 pm

seneca2008 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:01 pm
I have briefly looked at your memrise course. I commend your industry but the translations into English are hardly idiomatic. “Well, Hello there!” has quite a different meaning in England than you might imagine. “How goes it” a literal translation of the German but utterly unidiomatic. ‘Very nice” is so bland in English that I am not sure it really captures “οὐκ ἄχαρις“.

Have you translated German into English or Greek into English?

This exemplifies the difficulty of translation. Whether you are satisfied with the result will depend on the goal you are seeking to achieve.

Good luck!
Hallo, No I don't, I don't make any translation. I just take the translations that were proposed in the link I pasted formerly. Yes, you are right the translations seem to me so rigid (I'm not a english native speaker)and yes, I'm looking precisely for a collaborator to correct them and make more vividly those translations. I would add that this memrise course just taked me one entirely evening to maked it so you will see that It has more mistakes than virtues (My task was only to organize the info and tabulate it in an excel presentation then to upload it), but I think it´s an approach to learn this book, and yes I agree with you in the “οὐκ ἄχαρις“ for example, and in really other phrases that need to be explained (maybe gramatically and sintactically) but not only that but also comments that make complex the translations and not so flat, so yes I think what I did was just the first approach, but the course absolutely is to be made.

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:08 pm

Here is my proof-reading of 15 lists (42 - 57). I suggest you check what I think are mistakes against your other references:

Title: english an Ancient Greek -> English to Ancient Greek

43.1: παυτηνί -> ταυτηνί
43.7: νὲ Δία -> νὴ Δία
43.22: Andshe’s -> And she's
44.27: εἰσελήλυϙεν -> εἰσελήλυθεν
44.6: καῖ - καὶ
45.6: grls -> girls
46.16: you -> you?
47.13: tought -> tough
50.3: εῖρασατο - εἰργάσατο (perhaps)
51.3: English is wanting
51.4 Hat warnt have you vor that? -> What warrant have you for that?
54.9: ἐσι -> ἐστι
57.1: hat's -> what's
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Sohtnirybal » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:18 am

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:08 pm
Here is my proof-reading of 15 lists (42 - 57). I suggest you check what I think are mistakes against your other references:

Title: english an Ancient Greek -> English to Ancient Greek

43.1: παυτηνί -> ταυτηνί
43.7: νὲ Δία -> νὴ Δία
43.22: Andshe’s -> And she's
44.27: εἰσελήλυϙεν -> εἰσελήλυθεν
44.6: καῖ - καὶ
45.6: grls -> girls
46.16: you -> you?
47.13: tought -> tough
50.3: εῖρασατο - εἰργάσατο (perhaps)
51.3: English is wanting
51.4 Hat warnt have you vor that? -> What warrant have you for that?
54.9: ἐσι -> ἐστι
57.1: hat's -> what's
Woww, really apreciate your help. I'm going to put my hands on work, thank you. If you will continue to check mistakes can would like to suggest you something it´s that I prefer you focus your attention in greek more than in english, just because english answers are going to be re written at all.
seneca2008 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:01 pm
I have briefly looked at your memrise course. I commend your industry but the translations into English are hardly idiomatic. “Well, Hello there!” has quite a different meaning in England than you might imagine. “How goes it” a literal translation of the German but utterly unidiomatic. ‘Very nice” is so bland in English that I am not sure it really captures “οὐκ ἄχαρις“.

Have you translated German into English or Greek into English?

This exemplifies the difficulty of translation. Whether you are satisfied with the result will depend on the goal you are seeking to achieve.

Good luck!
I have a question for you, what do you think is the most acurrate expression in english that could express the force of the οὐκ ἄχαρις. Thanks.


In general I'll correct two things

1. Adjust the translation. It means I will favor an english translation easy to remember than an idiomatic one.
2. Correct and check the greek answers with the ones that original book get, https://archive.org/details/sprechensie ... g/page/n27 this to correct any greek mistake I could copy from the versions I take.

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:15 am

Sohtnirybal wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:18 am
Woww, really apreciate your help. I'm going to put my hands on work, thank you.
My numbering is off by 1. For example, 43.1: παυτηνί -> ταυτηνί is actually in 44:1.

I misread the layout of the Memrise page, i.e. I read "<43" as the beginning of a sequence "<43 ... />", ie "The following contains list 43", rather than "<43" as meaning "43 is to the left", ie "43 in the previous list"
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Sohtnirybal » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:51 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:15 am
Sohtnirybal wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:18 am
Woww, really apreciate your help. I'm going to put my hands on work, thank you.
My numbering is off by 1. For example, 43.1: παυτηνί -> ταυτηνί is actually in 44:1.

I misread the layout of the Memrise page, i.e. I read "<43" as the beginning of a sequence "<43 ... />", ie "The following contains list 43", rather than "<43" as meaning "43 is to the left", ie "43 in the previous list"
Hallo, I haven't reach in my revision to these parts yet, but I take note of what you said to me.

On the other hand your anotation was right but as I modify and duplicate levels (to intensify the phrases have been already learned) your anotacion in relation with the levels of the course gets unsettled, but your anotations are easy to follow since are the same ones that the original book follows.

In today´s revision I reached level 31 (called: wait) from the actual course ie: https://www.memrise.com/course/2204032/ ... e-attisch/

In relation with this last part I´m afraid if the english translations I propose are more flexive and less rigid than the idiomatic ones, what do you think? I apreciate if you take a look.

Thanks and Regards

M.

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:25 pm

Sohtnirybal wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:51 pm
In relation with this last part I´m afraid if the english translations I propose are more flexive and less rigid than the idiomatic ones, what do you think? I apreciate if you take a look.
Due to censorial policy where I live, we don't have access to archive.org, so I won't be able to check the Greek against J.'s book.

For the translations, I don't think it matters too much how good your English translations are. Pedagogical fashions have changed greatly. It is unlikely that beginners or lower intermediate students will use a resource such as what you are preparing. Grammatical rules are taught in abstract then applied to reading these days, rather then learning Greek by learning example sentences. I think that the expected modern users will be those with an intermediate level or higher, who want to improve the idiomaticity of their Greek compositions. How do you envision this memorise list being used - will people be memorizing your English renderings, or just the Greek?

That being said, in the list you asked for comment on, I think the force of the μῶν would be better expressed by a tagged sentence, "I didn't ..., did I?" or by some other culturally appropriate negative politeness marker, for example, "I hope, ...".
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Callisper » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:21 pm

There is a lot of odd stuff going on here.

The translator himself comments: “I think it's more important that the English and Greek express the same idea, even where the English idiom doesn't work the same way as the German.”

Here's the source for the translations and the comment - http://www.letsreadgreek.com/phrasebook ... sebook.pdf. I presume the OP is simply making a Memrise course of this, so let's not abjure his idiom.

But setting aside the language used, many of the translations seem not to quite sit well - and it goes beyond how natural or otherwise they sound in English. Just one example - "ἴθι χαίρων" (I am looking now at just one page of the Memrise - Level 7) does not mean "Be happy!" when it is used in Attic Greek. Nor is that the usual sense of "χαῖρε πολλά" (again, same page of Memrise).
seneca2008 wrote:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:01 pm
“Well, Hello there!” has quite a different meaning in England than you might imagine. “How goes it” a literal translation of the German but utterly unidiomatic. ‘Very nice” is so bland in English that I am not sure it really captures “οὐκ ἄχαρις“.
Regarding "well, hello there!": "ὦ χαῖρε" in Attic doesn't simply mean "hello" (to which "χαῖρε" alone would be pretty close) but rather something a bit different. It is often (to try and find something closer in English) "hail" (cf https://www.dailywritingtips.com/the-mu ... s-of-hail/ "hail, fellow well met!", which is pretty much it). It could be that the translator is trying to express that, or at least convey that the phrase means something more than "hello". I'm not sure how exactly you read the tone of the "Well, hello there!" exclamation - if it's the same as me then yes, obvs this has implications in English that the Greek does not have. :lol:

I agree that "very nice" is a horrible translation of "οὐκ ἄχαρις", and as discussed above, I think the problem goes beyond the English idiom. It doesn't capture the sense correctly. Maybe you said all that needs to be said on that one.


Quite apart from all that, the Greek itself seems dubious to me sometimes. Just one example is "εὐψύχει!" for "farewell!" (and I am choosing that from the one page I am looking at, the same one as above). No one writing a book called "Sprechen sie Attisch" should be using "εὐψύχει" rather than the obvious and famous "ἔρρωσο". (Nor does the writer offer "ἔρρωσο" anywhere else in the book, according to a search of the PDF.) I was doubtful of "ὑγίαινε!" too but at least it's used before the 1st century AD (once; by Herodian in a pretty corrupt passage). It is possible I am missing something here regarding the author's intent but I have found a few more such problems glancing through just a small selection of the Greek.

Besides all this, even if the book had perfect Greek and (somehow) perfect English translations, I'm not sure what the point is. Learning to say "hello" and "goodbye" is facile and is almost certainly not the key to your understanding Greek better. You (OP) talk about using Memrise to memorize useful things like principal parts - why spend your time on something like this?

For the record, I am not opposed to work like this book or to their aim; but in my view the matter of rounding off someone's efforts at spoken Greek by supplying them with otherwise hard-to-reach colloquial phrases is something that should follow a very strong command of the rest of the language, not precede it. Ask yourself, simply, how often a lack of knowledge on any given point would be a barrier to understand the Attic you read.

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:15 am

Callisper wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:21 pm
Quite apart from all that, the Greek itself seems dubious to me sometimes. Just one example is "εὐψύχει!" for "farewell!" (and I am choosing that from the one page I am looking at, the same one as above). No one writing a book called "Sprechen sie Attisch" should be using "εὐψύχει" rather than the obvious and famous "ἔρρωσο". (Nor does the writer offer "ἔρρωσο" anywhere else in the book, according to a search of the PDF.)
Is that a misprint? Or a wrong transcription?

In Demosthenes On the Crown (18).78 Philip's quoted letter has the valediction εὐτυχεῖτε. Moreover, some papyri I have read read use εὐτύχει.

The translation, "Fare well" seems a reasonable abbreviation for "Enjoy good fortune in all that you do", "Best of luck to you".
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: Looking for a memrise collaborator.

Post by Callisper » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:02 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:15 am
Is that a misprint? Or a wrong transcription?

In Demosthenes On the Crown (18).78 Philip's quoted letter has the valediction εὐτυχεῖτε. Moreover, some papyri I have read read use εὐτύχει.
Yes εὐτύχει is also a good Attic valediction along with ἔρρωσο. It should have occurred to me really; thanks for pointing it out.

Unfortunately I am unconvinced this could be a simple mistake of printing/copying. See LSJ:

II. εὐψύχει farewell! a common inscr. on tombs, IG12(2).393 (Mytilene), etc.

And then in the 1st century AD it started to be used in this sense in (non-Atticizing) literature. There should be no doubt then that the book-writer meant what he wrote.

Note also that not even in the above citation from LSJ does it sound like a standard valediction. Grave inscriptions and letters are very different (let alone face-to-face conversation). My guess is this has a very different tone from the good-bye with which you would wave off a friend after dinner.

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