Were the degrees cancelled at a caesar's death?

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ἑκηβόλος
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Were the degrees cancelled at a caesar's death?

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:29 am

One passage from the Talmud says to wait patiently, because the degrees of the Caesar would be cancelled at his death. Is tgat an historically accurate statement under Roman law?
Thou wast not born for death, immortal Bird!
No hungry generations tread thee down;
The voice I hear this passing night was heard
In ancient days by emperor and clown:
(Keats, Ode to a nightingale, 1819).

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Re: Were the degrees cancelled at a caesar's death?

Post by mwh » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:29 am

No.

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Re: Were the degrees cancelled at a caesar's death?

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:16 pm

Is the force of a decree nullified if the original document is no longer in the treasury?
Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, by Nissan Mindel wrote:Once again religious persecution increased. The Romans prohibited Shabbat observance and other important Jewish laws.

The Sages decided to send a delegation to Rome, and chose Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai to head the delegation.

When they came to Rome, they heard that the daughter of the Roman emperor had lost her mind and that no one could cure her. Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai proceeded to the palace and asked for permission to treat the patient. After a few days’ treatment the princess became well. In gratitude, the emperor told Rabbi Shimon that he could choose the most precious thing in his treasury. Rabbi Shimon found there the original decrees of persecution, and claimed them as his reward. Thus he succeeded in bringing great salvation to his people.
In this case, would Rabbi Shimon bar Yohai's action have stopped the persecution in his becoming the owner of the decree?
Thou wast not born for death, immortal Bird!
No hungry generations tread thee down;
The voice I hear this passing night was heard
In ancient days by emperor and clown:
(Keats, Ode to a nightingale, 1819).

mwh
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Re: Were the degrees cancelled at a caesar's death?

Post by mwh » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:09 pm

Well, that’s the implication of the story, but the entire story is self-evidently fictive. It has all the hallmarks of folktale and no claim to historicity. In fact it’s interestingly novelistic in character. Such tales invariably get attached to culturally significant figures. (Jesus of Nazareth, for one.)
In actuality, imperial decrees, like laws, remained in force until revoked or superseded, and making off with copies from the treasury(?!) would have no effect on their validity.

A small irony. Today there’s a Jewish settlement named for Shimon bar Yochai. It occupies the site of the massacre of a Palestinian village’s inhabitants by Israeli forces.

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Re: Were the degrees cancelled at a caesar's death?

Post by jeidsath » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:44 pm

I looked this up. Safsaf.

Further irony: It was Safsofa from Roman times down until the 1948 war. Apparently a Rabbi was once imprisoned there, and his colleagues appealed to Zenobia.
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κλέπτε νόῳ, ἐπεὶ οὐ παρελεύσεαι οὐδέ με πείσεις.

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Re: Were the degrees cancelled at a caesar's death?

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:08 am

jeidsath wrote:It was Safsofa from Roman times down until the 1948 war.
There is no reference to the time after 1948 in the Safsaf article, and Kfar Hoshen the modern village has its own wikipedia entry. Even the name Safsaf is re-etymologised from "weeping willow" (Arabic etymology) to "the land where fruits ripen later" (Hebrew etymology).
Thou wast not born for death, immortal Bird!
No hungry generations tread thee down;
The voice I hear this passing night was heard
In ancient days by emperor and clown:
(Keats, Ode to a nightingale, 1819).

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