What was the name of the Spartan education system?

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What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:26 pm

Did the Spartan education system have a specific name in Greek, or how is it usually referred to in English?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by bedwere » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:19 pm

τοῦτο Σπάρτα :lol:

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:25 pm

bedwere wrote:τοῦτο Σπάρτα :lol:
:roll: Is that a vocative or dialectical form?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by ἑκηβόλος » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:56 pm

Plb. 1.32.1 wrote:περὶ δὲ τοὺς καιροὺς τούτους καταπλεῖ τις εἰς τὴν Καρχηδόνα ξενολόγος τῶν ἀπεσταλμένων εἰς τὴν Ἑλλάδα πρότερον [εἰς τὴν Καρχηδονίων], ἄγων στρατιώτας πλείστους, ἐν οἷς καὶ Ξάνθιππόν τινα Λακεδαιμόνιον, ἄνδρα τῆς Λακωνικῆς ἀγωγῆς μετεσχηκότα καὶ τριβὴν ἐν τοῖς πολεμικοῖς ἔχοντα σύμμετρον.
Is this correct.
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by bedwere » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:54 pm

ἑκηβόλος wrote:
bedwere wrote:τοῦτο Σπάρτα :lol:
:roll: Is that a vocative or dialectical form?
It's Doric nominative Σπάρτη.

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by Paul Derouda » Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:48 pm

If you want to say ”This is Sparta”, wouldn’t you rather use some form of οδε instead of ουτος? Ουτος often refers to something pertaining to the person addressed, while οδε is something close to the person speaking. And perhaps you would also use a particle, perhaps μεν or γαρ? So I would say οδε μεν Σπαρτη or τοδε μεν Σπαρτη or perhaps even ταδε μεν Σπαρτη.

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by bedwere » Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:03 am

οὗτος is also used to refer to something previously mentioned. I imagined somebody witnessing the education system and asking what the name would be. The Laconic answer followed.

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by Timothée » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:44 am

How about attraction? I would probably have said something like αὕτη/ἥδε γὰρ Σπάρτη.

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by Paul Derouda » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:05 am

Of course, how you translate "this" depends on the context and I suppose you can render it in different ways. I took it that Bedwere was referring to the historically well-informed scene in Zack Snyder's film 300. (Notice also the woman nodding assent to Leonidas: she's Gorgo, the same person recently referred to in another Herodotus thread, who as a 8 or 9 year old girl prevents her father Cleomenes from being corrupt by Aristogoras).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZeYVIWz99I

Basically, the Persian herald says "This [what we're dealing with right now right here] is madness", to which Leonidas responds "This [our land here, which we're dealing with right now] is Sparta".

The gender of ὅδε depends on its referent (implied or not), which might be for instance χῶρος (hence, ὅδε) or χώρα (hence, ἥδε), but it could also be also a neuter demonstrative τόδε or τάδε. I don't think it would be typically attracted to Σπάρτη. Looking at the actual exchange of words between the herald and Leonidas I actually think τάδε works best:

ΚΗΡΥΞ
μανία τάδε ἐστίν.
ΛΕΩΝΙΔΗΣ
μανία; καὶ μὴν Σπάρτη τάδε γ᾽ ἐστίν. (Not sure if γε would be elided in prose.)

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by Paul Derouda » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:20 am

Perhaps that wasn't laconic enough... Maybe μανία; ἀλλ᾽ Σπάρτη γε τάδε.

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by Paul Derouda » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:28 am

Note LSJ on ὅδε, especially:
III. in sentences beginning this is . . , the Engl. this is freq. represented by nom. pl. neut. τάδε; ἐπεὶ οὐκ ἔρανος τάδε γ’ ἐστίν this is not an ἔρανος, Od.1.226; ἆρ’ οὐχ ὕβρις τάδ’; is not this insolence? S.OC883; of persons, Ἀπόλλων τάδ’ ἦν this was A., S. OT1329 (lyr.) ; οὐ γὰρ ἔσθ’ Ἕκτωρ τάδε E.Andr. 168; οὐκέτι Τροία τάδε Id.Tr.100 (anap.) ; οὐ τάδε Βρόμιος Id.Cyc.63 (lyr.) ; οὐκ Ἴωνες τάδε εἰσίν Th.6.77; τάδ’ οὐχὶ Πελοπόννησος, ἀλλ’ Ἰωνία Inscr. ap.Str.9.1.6.

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by Timothée » Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:31 am

You may be right. If I understand this correctly, the attraction to the predicative (i.e. τοῦτο/τόδε becoming accordant with¹ the gender and number of the predicative by attraction) should occur normally (Schwyzer—Debrunner p. 606), but it could be different with placenames, here ἡ Σπάρτη.

¹What’s the normal way of expressing this in English?

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by Timothée » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:40 am

I skimmed the LS and took the following:

On agreement it says that οὗτος usually agrees with the noun that stands as its predicate, αὕτη γὰρ ἦν σοι πρόφασις S. Ph. 1034; δικαστοῦ αὕτη ἀρετή [ἐστι] Pl. Ap. 18a — —
But: though οὗτος usually agrees with the noun that serves as predicate, it is not rare to find it in the neuter, μανία δὲ καὶ τοῦτ’ ἐστί E. Ba. 305, — — ταῦτ’ ἐστὶν ὁ προδότης Aeschin. 2.166.

The meaning is
LS wrote:this, and it designates the nearer, as opposed to ἐκεῖνος that, the more remote.
Further, under ὅδε, the LS states that
LS wrote:ὅδε, like οὗτος, is opposite to ἐκεῖνος, to designate what is nearer as opposed to what is more remote; but ὅδε refers more distinctly to what is present, to what can be seen or pointed out, though this distinction is sometimes not observed
That is, ὅδε tends to be more deictic than οὗτος. This results in what Paul said afore. The choice between ὅδε and οὗτος could also be accordant with how the scene is pictured: οὗτος maybe more general, ὅδε pointing more strongly: This is Sparta.

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by Markos » Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:17 pm

Less literally:

ΚΗΡΥΞ
αὕτη μωρία.
ΛΕΩΝΙΔΗΣ (pointing to Gorgo)
αὕτη δὲ Σπαρτιᾶτις

or:

ΚΗΡΥΞ
σὺ μαίνῃ.
ΛΕΩΝΙΔΗΣ
σὺ δ' εἶ ἐν Σπάρτῃ.
Timothée wrote:If I understand this correctly, the attraction to the predicative (i.e. τοῦτο/τόδε becoming accordant with¹ the gender and number of the predicative by attraction) should occur normally...

¹What’s the normal way of expressing this in English?
"agreeing with?"
οὐ μανθάνω γράφειν, ἀλλὰ γράφω τοῦ μαθεῖν.

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by mwh » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:07 pm

What is this craziness? No-one, Spartan or not, would say τουτο Σπαρτα, let alone ὅδε μεν Σπαρτη.

Their education system would be referred to as ἡ Λακωνικὴ παιδεία or the like, and their training as αγωγή.

To an Athenian arguing that the Eagles were the team to root for in the superbowl, on the grounds that eagles are the representatives of Zeus and that Zeus’ marriage to Hera exemplified philadelphia, a Spartan replied “We are patriots.”

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by jeidsath » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:31 pm

It's referred to by Xenophon several times in his Constitution of the Lacedaimonians. Basically it's just as Michael says:

ἐγὼ μέντοι, ἐπεὶ καὶ περὶ γενέσεως ἐξήγημαι, βούλομαι καὶ τὴν παιδείαν ἑκατέρων σαφηνίσαι.

ἡ μὲν δὴ παιδεία εἴρηται ἥ τε Λακωνικὴ καὶ ἡ τῶν ἄλλων Ἑλλήνων...

However, the word seems to have had a wider range than it does today:

λεκτέον δέ μοι δοκεῖ εἶναι καὶ περὶ τῶν παιδικῶν ἐρώτων: ἔστι γάρ τι καὶ τοῦτο πρὸς παιδείαν.
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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by Paul Derouda » Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:43 pm

I know, the part where Leonidas yells "This is Sparta" was always the weak spot in this otherwise painstakingly accurate film adaptation. Just look for instance at the famous Spartan combat attire consisting of swim trunks and a cloak, widely attested on pottery and other pictographic evidence, or the traditional Laconian 10 m wide bottomless pit in the middle of the city without any protection whatsoever to prevent cattle and children from falling into it. I suspect that it's actually the reason why we've never heard about archaeological discoveries of any significance in Sparta – archaeologists fall into the pit before they get to report their findings.

Anyway I had basically rejected ὅδε μεν Σπαρτη already, as my point was basically that I thought that we need a form of ὅδε instead of οὗτος. But is there something wrong with ἀλλ᾽ Σπάρτη γε τάδε or καὶ μὴν Σπάρτη τάδε γ᾽ ἐστίν?

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by Timothée » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:23 pm

Paul Derouda wrote:But is there something wrong with ἀλλ᾽ Σπάρτη γε τάδε or καὶ μὴν Σπάρτη τάδε γ᾽ ἐστίν?
They seem fine, though the elision in ἀλλ’ before a consonant does look slightly strange, to be fair.

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by Paul Derouda » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:32 pm

Oops.

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by mwh » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:03 am

OK Paul your later suggestions would be just about possible in suitable context, though I’d strike the γε and τάδε would be much more unusual with a city name than with e.g. μανία. Sophocles’ famous Απολλων ταδ’ ην is high lyric, as are most such instances.

The English doesn't really go into Greek. We might try “ναί, μανία Λακωνική” and perhaps dial down the volume a bit. Spartans never lose their cool.

You’d have to be in America to appreciate my laconicism-illustrating Spartan reply to the Athenian.

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Re: What was the name of the Spartan education system?

Post by jeidsath » Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:23 am

mwh wrote:To an Athenian arguing that the Eagles were the team to root for in the superbowl, on the grounds that eagles are the representatives of Zeus and that Zeus’ marriage to Hera exemplified philadelphia, a Spartan replied “We are patriots.”
:lol:
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