Dragons Speaking Latin

Here you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Latin, and more.
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scullyuma
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Dragons Speaking Latin

Post by scullyuma » Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:21 pm

Hello People
I really have searched the web and other places for a site like yours.
You see, I have a 13 year old niece (Kaitlin) who is writing a novel (it's true!), and there are two lines she would like to have translated into Latin. It's a fantasy novel, like LOTR, and this text is being spoken to a dragon, or it is a dragon speaking - not sure (I dare not ask her again and look like an idiot - or worse, like I wasn't paying attention!). Kaitlin asked me (why the hell would I know Latin? I'm an Accountant. Accountants don't know anything...) so I refer the task to you, if you would be so kind. The text is as follows -

" Beware the beast – he stands before you! Turn not away, for he will rend your flesh with his claws! Love created, is love false - save the one spelled.... or all else fails! "

This from the mind of a thirteen year old; I'm either quite pleased or it's a cry for help.

Also, if I may, are you aware of a common Latin phrase that translates roughly to -

" The thought of pain will make man do anything. "

A doctor said it to me once after I busted a neck bone and most of my left humerus, and because of a lack of nurses I put myself through a miserable 30 metre walk to get to the medicine room and get my own morphine. I got into quite a deal of trouble (I was caught on the way back - Oh Sure, then the nurses appear!) but I had already taken the 25mg of the stuff - hence the doctor's comment.

I digress...

Thankyou for you time;I'll ensure Kaitlin will be told of the source of the translation, get her to write to you or something.

sincere regards

John Bradford

Chris Weimer
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Post by Chris Weimer » Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:56 pm

I'm not sure offhand of a Latin quote to that affect, but Cicero's Ad Atticus 3.13 discusses something similar.

" Beware the beast – he stands before you! Turn not away, for he will rend your flesh with his claws! Love created, is love false - save the one spelled.... or all else fails! "

Is it to one person or to more than one? That makes a huge difference. If only one person (or to the dragon):

Cave bestiam! nam ante te stat. Noli vertere, carnem enim ungulis scindet! Amor creata est perfida - conserva (what the heck does "the one spelled" supposed to mean?) ne omnia defiant!

adrianus
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Post by adrianus » Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:05 pm

Salve Chris
"incanto -are -avi -atum" = "to bewitch, put a spell on"
"the one spelled" = "incantatus"
Last edited by adrianus on Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Chris Weimer
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Post by Chris Weimer » Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:09 pm

adrianus wrote:"incanto -are -avi -atum" = "to bewitch, put a spell on"
"the one spelled" = "incantatus"
The one *bespelled*? In normal English idiom, spelled is the past tense of "to spell" not "to cast a spell".

*shrugs*

adrianus
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Post by adrianus » Fri Feb 08, 2008 10:15 pm

Not according to this novel's author, Chris! And she is quite right because she is using the not-that-old sense of the English verb "Spell (spel), v. (1591) 1. trans. To charm, fascinate, bewitch, bind by spell." (OED) Smart girl.
Non, Christophore, apud auctorem huius operis fabulosi! Et benè recta est quae verbo in sensu antiquo utitur. Puella cata est. Partem vitae non minutam libris saeculi sexti decimi et septimi decimi egi, et illa tantùm tredecim annos nata!

"Save the one spelled" = "Conserva incantatum"
Et pulchra est interpretatio tua, Christophore.
Last edited by adrianus on Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

adrianus
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Post by adrianus » Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:25 am

accidental post. casù collocavi

Chris Weimer
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Post by Chris Weimer » Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:21 am

adrianus wrote:Et pulchra est interpretatio tua, Christophore.
Multas tibi gratias ago, amice! Ciceronianissimus tamen est.

quendidil
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Post by quendidil » Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:20 am

adrianus wrote:Not according to this novel's author, Chris! And she is quite right because she is using the not-that-old sense of the English verb "Spell (spel), v. (1591) 1. trans. To charm, fascinate, bewitch, bind by spell." (OED) Smart girl.
Non, Christophore, apud auctorem huius operis fabulosi! Et benè recta est quae verbo in sensu antiquo utitur. Puella cata est. Partem vitae non minutam libris saeculi sexti decimi et septimi decimi egi, et illa tantùm tredecim annos nata!

"Save the one spelled" = "Conserva incantatum"
Et pulchra est interpretatio tua, Christophore.
Incidentally, the British English past tense of "to spell", as in "to spell a word" is "spelt". :)

Pronunciation:
\ˈspelt\

chiefly British past and past participle of spell

scullyuma
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Post by scullyuma » Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:34 am

Dear Adrianus and Chris
Thankyou so much for your help with the dragon translation. Kaitlin will beside herself. It really matters how many people you are talking to as to how one structures grammer or syntax?? - that's quite an esoteric world you have there.

Again, thankyou


John Bradford

quendidil
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Post by quendidil » Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:18 pm

scullyuma wrote:Dear Adrianus and Chris
Thankyou so much for your help with the dragon translation. Kaitlin will beside herself. It really matters how many people you are talking to as to how one structures grammer or syntax?? - that's quite an esoteric world you have there.

Again, thankyou


John Bradford
Well, try to recall your Shakespeare. Or even the oft-quoted phrase "hear ye! Hear ye!". "Hear ye!" and "Hear thou!" are analogous to that difference in Latin, it's just that they aren't conjugated in English.

adrianus
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Post by adrianus » Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:35 pm

What Quendidil says about English regarding number, John, applies also to many contemporary languages, only much more so because so many inflect. It is important. Shame on you as an accountant to say number isn't important!
Quod de numero apud anglicam dicit Quendidil, Johannes, multis linguis hodiernis verum est, et etiam ampliús quià tantae sunt quae declinant. Numerus gravis est. Numerandi peritus qui ut parvum numerum estimet! Pudens esto!
quendidil wrote:Incidentally, the British English past tense of "to spell", as in "to spell a word" is "spelt".
Quendidil, the past tense and past particiciple of "to spell" is both "spelled" and "spelt", according to most dictionaries (incl. OED).
Tempus et participium praeteritum anglicè "spell" verbi alteruter "spelled" ac "spelt" est (pleros apud dictionarios, et certè OED).
Last edited by adrianus on Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

quendidil
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Post by quendidil » Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:05 pm

I know, but just as both "honor" and "honour" are found in the same dictionary, usage varies across the Atlantic, dunnit?

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Post by adrianus » Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:26 pm

At in hoc casu, Quendidil, alterutra orthographia cis oceanum Atlanticum (vel in eâdem orâ) recta est. Te "spelled" dictionem anglicè britannicè falsam esse dixisse putavi. Non est. Me ignoscas si te malè intellexi.

But in this case, Quendidil, both spellings are used on the same side of the Atlantic. I thought you were saying "spelled" was incorrect in British English, but it isn't. Apologies if I misunderstood.

nov ialiste
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Post by nov ialiste » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:14 am

As mentioned above, in British English the past of "to spell" meaning quote the letters is "spelled" or "spelt".

However, in the sense:

"Spell (spel), v. (1591) 1. trans. To charm, fascinate, bewitch, bind by spell."

I'm pretty sure the past can be only "spelled", at least in modern usage (I'm British BTW).

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Post by quendidil » Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:44 am

Actually, I believe "to spell" as in to cast one, is a fairly recent development. Old English spellian means
1. wv/i2 to talk, converse, discourse; 2. wv/t2 to announce, proclaim, relate, tell, utter; 3. to conspire
To be honest, I've never heard of it being used as a verb in the casting sense; only in the case of "to be bespelled" or "to bespell"

The Online Etymological Dictionary gives
Meaning "set of words with magical powers, incantation, charm" first recorded 1579.
for the noun spell.

adrianus
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Post by adrianus » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:40 pm

Keats, Fill For Me A Brimming Bowl

FILL for me a brimming bowl
And in it let me drown my soul:
But put therein some drug, designed
To Banish Women from my mind:
For I want not the stream inspiring
That fills the mind with fond desiring,
But I want as deep a draught
As e'er from Lethe's wave was quaff'd;
From my despairing heart to charm
The Image of the fairest form
That e'er my reveling eyes beheld,
That e'er my wandering fancy spell'd.
(et caetera)

Dryden, The Duke of Guise (Scene III, line 8 )
"aw'd and craven'd as he had been spell'd"

Absolutely, Nov Ialiste. Modern English spell books definitely use "spelled". Apologies, everyone else, but I'm oathbound not to reveal sources on this, as you evidently well know, Nov Ialiste.
Certum est, Nov Ialiste. Recentibus in operibus anglicis incantamentorum "incantavi", quod ad literarum connexionem pertinet, sic semper scribi: "I spelled". Me ignoscatis, omnes alii. De hac re, me jurejurando obstricto, non licet fontes acclarare, ut evidenter benè scis, Nov Ialiste.

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Post by quendidil » Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:04 am

Eh? Nov Ialiste? Novial?

Chris Weimer
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Post by Chris Weimer » Thu Feb 14, 2008 4:24 am

nov ialiste
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quendidil
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Post by quendidil » Thu Feb 14, 2008 5:21 am

Chris Weimer wrote:nov ialiste
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Ah! Pardon me, :) the name triggered a vague recollection of the abovementioned conlang.

nov ialiste
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Post by nov ialiste » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:45 pm

Duplicate post.
Last edited by nov ialiste on Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nov ialiste
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Post by nov ialiste » Thu Feb 14, 2008 2:50 pm

quendidil wrote:
Chris Weimer wrote:nov ialiste
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Ah! Pardon me, :) the name triggered a vague recollection of the abovementioned conlang.
Yes, it's a play on that name. It can be read as "Nov IAListe" meaning "new IAList" where IAL stands for International Auxiliary Language. The name of the language Novial is from Nov IAL (nov international auxiliari lingue meaning new international auxiliary language).

I believe Novial is also a rather uncommon surname, possibly of Italy. I'd be interested if anybody knows more about the surname.
Last edited by nov ialiste on Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nov ialiste
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Post by nov ialiste » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:13 pm

But getting back on topic, this story sounds very exciting and impressive.

It seems very appropriate for a dragon to speak in an ancient tongue. :D

I hope the explanations about the "you" form of the verb were clear enough. Basically it depends on whether one is speaking to one person, when "you" is singular, or to more than one, when "you" is plural.

In modern standard English the distinction does not exist, but it is still used in the Yorkshire dialect, although possibly confined more to rural areas these days. I had a fellow student from Yorkshire when I was at university who was always saying thou and thee. :)

For example, with the verb "to be" the Authorised version of the Bible uses:

I am
thou art
he/she/it is
we are
ye are
they are

Latin has the thou art/ye are distinction depending on whether it's one person spoken to or more than one.

nov ialiste
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Post by nov ialiste » Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:32 pm

duplicate

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