pronunciation used at LATINUM PODCAST

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Amadeus
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Post by Amadeus »

adrianus wrote:We aren't fighting, Amadeus.
Hahahae. I was trying to be funny again... man I keep failing! :lol:
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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Post by adrianus »

Be happy, Amadeus. That remark definitely succeeded.

Felix sis, bone Amadee. Adnotato novissimo evenisti. Sanè, hilaris erat. :lol:

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Post by Lucus Eques »

adrianus wrote:Sanè, hilaris erat. :lol:
Nonne "hilare"?
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Post by adrianus »

You're right, Lucus. Generally, one says "Hilare erat" (no particular subject -- neter). But, in fact, I'm referring to "adnotatus", which is masculine, as "a funny remark" ["Your last remark, it was funny"]. Are both ways not right?

Rectė dicis, Luce. Quotidianè "Hilare erat" (sine particulare subjecto --neutro). Verò autem, "adnotatus" genus masculinum habet, ergo "adnotatus hilaris". Forsitan utrimque verum est, nonne?
Last edited by adrianus on Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by adrianus »

accidental post -- sorry
Perperàm collocavi -- me paenitet

Oops, I looked up "adnotatus" and discovered that, while it is indeed masculine, it's a 4th declension noun, not 2nd. declension! So I should have written "Adnotatu novissimo evenisti" instead of ""Adnotato novissimo evenisti".

Hau! Dictionem "adnotatus" in dictionario spectavi. Cum masculini generis quidem sit, inveni, nomen quaternae et non secundae declinationis est. Ideò, me scripsisse oportuit "adnotatu novissimo evenisti" ("adnotato novissimo evenisti" locó).

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Post by Kyneto Valesio »

So back to Evan's pronunciation. This will be my last comment on the matter. Somehow or another details often escape me. So as I began to listen to the adler lessons although I was struck by the novel pronunciation of CUI (which evan himself has now clarified) I didn't really notice many other aspects about his pronunciation which have since been established during our discussions as being desirable for those wishing to speak as the ancients did.

Partly as a result of these discussions I have decided to work to try to fully adopt the classical pronunciation and intend on using Evan, whose pronunciation I first questioned, as my model. From listening to the Adler lessons I think I am beginning to imitate the nasalization of the final "m". However, one area that I am unsure about is the question of elision. Please forgive me; I know this was extensively discussed but I am still unsure how and when to apply the rules of elision. If one of you could kindly just very briefly review the principles of elision, I will be forever grateful. Sorry to seem like such an idiot. Like I said, too frequently important information just passes over me. Eventually though I get it.

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Lucus Eques
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Post by Lucus Eques »

Ah, gotcha; I was exspecting it to be neuter since it wasn't "adnotatu."
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adrianus
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Post by adrianus »

Kyneto,
See, for example, Allen & Greenough on elision. For a really beautiful illustration of elision, listen to Vojin Nedeljkovic at Belgrade University reading Latin poetry.
De elisione, vide, exempli gratiâ, Allen & Greenough. http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/pt ... d%3D%23338
Ausculta recitandum cantorum latinorum à Vojin Nedeljkovic universitatis Belgradensis quod elisionem speciosissimè demonstrat. http://dekart.f.bg.ac.yu/~vnedeljk/VV/
Lucus Eques wrote:Ah, gotcha; I was exspecting it to be neuter since it wasn't "adnotatu."
You were twice wrong, then, Luce. But who's counting, really? I make so many mistakes I should be exhausted, but not too exhausted to rely on your help.
Ergo bis erravi, amice. :wink: At, certò, nemo talia numerat. Tot peccata depono ut videatur res deploratae esse. Eò tantùm erro, quantùm auxilio tuo credo.

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Lucus Eques
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Post by Lucus Eques »

It'll be "erravisti" in your translation — from my Italian experience I can understand that mistake.

What do you mean "twice wrong?"
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adrianus
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Post by adrianus »

Hi, Lucus. Well, I do think explaining is silly. Nevertheless, as a practice exercise in Latin that may benefit me more than anyone else (especially if you will help by noting mistakes), I will. I say you made two mistakes (thanks for the "erravisti" correction, by the way) because firstly you suggested "hilaris erat" was a mistake and then, after I had corrected myself about something else, you said you had believed "adnotato" just had to be neuter. [Altering the line to "Adnotato novissimo evenisti. Sanè, hilare erat." to make "hilare" agree with "adnotato" is to make two mistakes: "hilare" will be wrong and "adnotato" will be wrong.] Your saying "gotcha!" seemed to be unfair because I had gotten myself regarding "adnotatu". You sounded like you had just sprung, and I was wanting to say "please stop frightening me by jumping out of bushes".

Salve, Luce care. Quod quaeris me explicare frivolum est, ut opinor. Verumtamen, ut exercitatio in me ostendendo latinè sit, explicabo, et proinde fortasse ego saltem sapientior fiam (maximè cum auxilio tuo), etiamsi nemo alius. Dico bis errares (sincerè corrigendo "erravisti" tibi gratias, incidenter) quod primùm cum "hilaris erat" me erravisse admonuisti. Deinde, post alibi me errorem correxisse, dixisti te dictionem "adnotato" generis neutrius esse credere. In dicendo "te cepi!", te inaequus esse putavi, quia ratione "adnotatu" me ipse captus eram. Mihi videbatur te quasi ad meum salivisse, et tibi sic queritari volebam: "desinas me timere in saliendo ex arbusculis".

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Post by quendidil »

What about the schwa like sound at the end of "hoc"? Is that correct?

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Post by Amadeus »

Quendidil, I believe that he is saying "hocce" (or "hicce"). The simple "hoc" shouldn't have a schwa, however; that's italian, not latin.
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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hic haec hoc

Post by metrodorus »

The following is simply copied and pasted from Johan Winge's page on Classical Pronunciation:

Hic, haec, hoc...

This common pronoun has a peculiarity similar to the one noted above, for, what in dictionaries (and grammars) are listed as “hīc?, “h?c?, really stands for /hĭcc/, /h?cc/, with long consonant. (Historically, what happened was that the pronoun “hĭce?, neuter nominative “h?cce? (from “h?d?+“ce?), lost the trailing “e?, and the resulting /h?cc/ in the neuter was spelled “hoc?. The consonantal length of “hoc? was then sometimes, but not always, borrowed by “hic?, which originally had a short “c?.)

Note that “hīc? and “h?c?, with long vowels, are the correct pronunciations of the adverb, ‘here’, and the pronoun in the ablative, respectively.

You can find the full discussion here:
http://web.comhem.se/alatius/latin/quantity.html

-Evan.

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Post by Lucus Eques »

Amadeus wrote:Quendidil, I believe that he is saying "hocce" (or "hicce"). The simple "hoc" shouldn't have a schwa, however; that's italian, not latin.
Exactly what, may I ask, is Italian about a schwa? Do you mean when they can't end words with consonants? Neither can your folk so well, mi querido mexicano. ;) Although you yourself have clearly mastered this, as I hear from your recordings.
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Amadeus
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Post by Amadeus »

Lucus Eques wrote:Exactly what, may I ask, is Italian about a schwa? Do you mean when they can't end words with consonants? Neither can your folk so well, mi querido mexicano. ;) Although you yourself have clearly mastered this, as I hear from your recordings.
I dont' think spanish-speaking people add schwas at the end of words, or at least I'm not aware of it. I do know that, for example, many of my fellow mexicans can't say "Star", they say "Estar", but that is at the beginning of a word. Can you give me an example, Luke? :wink:
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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Post by Lucus Eques »

Amadeus wrote:
I dont' think spanish-speaking people add schwas at the end of words, or at least I'm not aware of it. I do know that, for example, many of my fellow mexicans can't say "Star", they say "Estar", but that is at the beginning of a word. Can you give me an example, Luke? :wink:
They do, for consonants that don't occur at the end of Spanish words often, like 'k' or 't' — although the issue is probably more common with Italians, mostly that's a stereotype.
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Amadeus
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Post by Amadeus »

Lucus Eques wrote:They do, for consonants that don't occur at the end of Spanish words often, like 'k' or 't' — although the issue is probably more common with Italians, mostly that's a stereotype.
Hmmm... as far as I know, neither k nor t are proper Spanish word-endings. They are usually dropped, like in "bufé" instead of "bufet" or "bisté" instead of "bistec". No schwa there. :wink: Do you have a more concrete example?

Ok, now listen to this italian fellow speaking latin:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-v1f1AQsdPY&feature=related

Notice he says "estÉ™" and not "est"?
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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Re: hic haec hoc

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Amadeus
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Re: hic haec hoc

Post by Amadeus »

Salve, Alati!

Is that really you in the Youtube video?! I must say that was quite a show! I thoroughly enjoyed it. :D Vale!

P.S.: Nice socks :P
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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Post by Arvid »

Lucus Eques wrote: — although the issue is probably more common with Italians, mostly that's a stereotype.
It is a stereotype, and the Italians unfairly get most of the attention for it, but native speakers of many other languages tend to add these schwas between words to break up some of the more congested consonant clusters that can occur in English when final and initial consonants butt up against each other. Even native speakers have problems with some of them, so don't feel bad! (We sound equally absurd when attempting some of the truly heroic sequences of consonants in German.) What we tend to do is simplify them rather than breaking them up, and this is why it sounds different enough to attract attention. I get the impression that Latin was more permissive in this regard than, well, Italian for example...but maybe there were schwas breaking up some of these clusters that just weren't written? Just an idea.

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Post by timeodanaos »

Arvid wrote:(We sound equally absurd when attempting some of the truly heroic sequences of consonants in German.)
Although off-topic, heroic, I must say, is the ONLY correct word to apply to the clusters -schch- and -tzt- in German. Especially following each other (although I've never seen that)

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Re: hic haec hoc

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Amadeus wrote:Is that really you in the Youtube video?! I must say that was quite a show! I thoroughly enjoyed it. :D Vale!

P.S.: Nice socks :P
Haha, yup, it is; glad you liked it. :) Of course, I would have prefered to wear soleae, as well as a proper (woolen) toga of course, but that will be for a later time. :wink:
Arvid wrote:(We sound equally absurd when attempting some of the truly heroic sequences of consonants in German.)
The usual Swedish example of consonant clusters is the adjective "västkustskt" (which is an adverb or adjective in the neuter, meaning "belonging to the west coast"). Even better is the (slightly contrived) word "blixtskt" ("having to do with someone named Blixt"): that is six consecutive consonant phonemes at the end of a word! Can German beat that?

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hocce

Post by metrodorus »

Salve Johannes.

Verum non "hoc" dico, sed "hocce". Scribit Adler " hic is often increased by the addition of the syllable -ce, as hicce, hocce, hujusce, &c" (pg 37).
Ergone, non 'ante'classical' est ? Sonitus hicce et hocce amo. Appellatio mea, viz. cui, cogito fortisan 'ante-classical' est, qui "quoi" dico.

-Metrodorus.

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Re: hic haec hoc

Post by ingrid70 »

Arvid wrote: The usual Swedish example of consonant clusters is the adjective "västkustskt" (which is an adverb or adjective in the neuter, meaning "belonging to the west coast"). Even better is the (slightly contrived) word "blixtskt" ("having to do with someone named Blixt"): that is six consecutive consonant phonemes at the end of a word! Can German beat that?
The quite common word 'slechtst' (worst) has 5 consonant phonemes (ch being one phoneme); and because in Dutch we write compounds without spaces, the 'worst-writing writer' becomes the "slechtstschrijvende" schrijver.

Ingrid
quoting from 'Opperlans', a book that plays games with the dutch language.

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Post by Alatius »

Retinēbantur equidem etiam in classicīs temporibus illae f?rmae cum exitū "-ce" scrīptae, ē quibus tamen quaedam, put?, ūsit?ti?rēs sunt; exemplī gr?ti? dēclīn?ti?ne "huiusce" mult? saepius ūsī sunt antīquī scrīpt?rēs, quam ill? "hocce". Utcunque sē rēs habet, n?n reprēnd? tē, quod "hocce" scrīb?s, sed mihī vidēris scrīpt?rī, cuius opera legis, immeritam vetust?tis speciem tribuere, cum eī, quod sine "-ce" scrīptum est, tamen v?ce "-ce" adiungis. Nihil enim impediēbat, quīn ita scrīptūrus fuerit, sī rē vēr? in anim? habuisset "hocce" dīcendum esse.

Certainly these forms with a final "ce" were retained also in classical times. However, some of them were more common than others. For example, I believe that the form "huiusce" is much more commonly used than "hocce". Anyhow, I'm not blaming you for writing "hocce", but it seems to me that you impose an unwaranted archaism unto an author, if you pronounce "ce" at the ends of the pronouns, where none is written. For, if the author had in mind that the older forms should be used, he would surely also have written it that way.

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Re: hic haec hoc

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Sound of hoc/hocc/hocce

Post by metrodorus »

Johan's point about reading the classical authors using hoc when they write hoc, is a valid one, but in informal quoting of a text in spoken conversation, I think this is less of an issue. As I said, I like the sound of hocce, hicce, etc in spoken informal Latin. I also personally find [hocc] quite hard to say. Until I can do it well enough to make me happy, you will be hearing more of hocce than of hocc from me.



-Evan.

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Latinum Podcast re-organisation

Post by metrodorus »

To make the podcast somewhat easier to navigate, I have now placed an index to the podcast on the right hand sidebar, a more satisfactory arrangement than my previous image file, which had no direct links to the pages containing the information.
http://latinum.mypodcast.com

I have also added a similar topic index to the imaginum vocabularium latinum which had become unwieldy, with over 1600 entries.

http://imaginumvocabulariumlatinum.blogspot.com/

-Evan.

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Re: Latinum Podcast re-organisation

Post by cantator »

metrodorus wrote:To make the podcast somewhat easier to navigate, I have now placed an index to the podcast on the right hand sidebar, a more satisfactory arrangement than my previous image file, which had no direct links to the pages containing the information.
http://latinum.mypodcast.com
Very nice, I like the new look.

However, it's "Cantator", not "Cantantor". :)
Similis sum folio de quo ludunt venti.

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Thanks

Post by metrodorus »

Corrections have been made :)

If you'd like to have a go recording some more Catullus I'd be really keen to fill out the corpus of Catullus readings.

I've uploaded a couple more chapters of Adler today. I'm going under the knife on Wednesday, ENT operation (nothing too serious, though any operation is a bit scary). So, I'll not be recording, I think, for a couple of weeks.

Evan.

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Re: Thanks

Post by cantator »

metrodorus wrote:Corrections have been made :)
Gratias ago tibi.
If you'd like to have a go recording some more Catullus I'd be really keen to fill out the corpus of Catullus readings.


Let me know which ones you need. I'm planning a rather big batch of new recordings, including some Tibullus and Nigellus Wireker.
I'm going under the knife on Wednesday, ENT operation (nothing too serious, though any operation is a bit scary).
I hope everything goes well and that you're back in form in short time.
Similis sum folio de quo ludunt venti.

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Latin Podcasting – An Exercise in Outreach

Post by metrodorus »

Latin Podcasting – An Exercise in Outreach

This article outlines the origins of the ‘Latinum’ podcast, and its associated support websites, ‘Schola’ (A safe place to write in Latin), and ‘Imaginum Vocabularium Latinum’ (A visual vocabulary).
Latinum originated in March 2007, with a few reading’s from Fenton’s “A Child’s First Latin Book’. At this stage, Google’s first scan of Georger Adler’s ‘lost’ textbook for Spoken Latin had not appeared on Google Books. This comprehensive rare text now forms the core of the Latinum Podcast.

The reasoning that lies behind the Latinum podcast is simple – for many learners, consolidation of language requires exposure to the ‘language lab’. Few Latin programmes make use of this, as Latin is not usually approached as a language with communication as an objective, and the resources have not been developed to the degree that they exist in the MFL’s.

The author of Latinum believes that the most rapid route to achieving fluency in reading, is through firing on all cylinders – reading , writing, and also engaging in speaking and listening to the target language.

The Latinum Podcast provides opportunities for listening , and also to a limited extent, for speaking. Using audio files, the user can expose themselves to many hours of Latin. Should they wish to, they can literally immerse themselves in the language during their waking hours, with the use of an MP3 player, leading to rapid progress, and eventual command of the language.

The methodology used for delivering the podcast lessons is that developed and outlined in great detail by Jean Manesca (An Oral System of Teaching Living Languages, Roe Lockwood and Son, NY 1845). This oral method for learning French is very intensive, and would not be suitable for a contemporary classroom environment, however it is perfectly suited for delivery as a podcast. Manesca wrote of its theoretical application to the Classics. Ollendorff wrote the first version of a Latin textbook along these lines, in a French-Latin edition, followed by George Adler's much superior English -Latin edition.

The goal of this method is to produce students who are totally fluent, and who can think and write in the language effectively.

The Latinum podcast is delivered in a restored classical pronunciation. The student is thus exposed to the thorny problem of quantity from the beginning, and acquires an ear for it right from the start, making the transition to reading Latin verse less of a hurdle when that point is eventually reached. The utility of this for the neophyte Latinist cannot be stressed enough.

The Latinum podcast has a wide and international audience base – over 7 000 individuals have downloaded the introductory episode, which explains what the Podcast is all about, and since May 2007 there have been over 900 000 audio file downloads, with over 1 700 regular users – the population of a small sized university, representing one of the largest communities of active Latin learners anywhere. The number of regular users continues to grow.

In terms of financing, podcasting is cheap. An high quality microphone is useful, but not essential. No other expenses are required. The primary issue is one of time; the time it takes to master the technology required to set up a podcast, and the time it takes to record and maintain the podcast itself. Assuming the host service does not go bust, Latinum will remain free for the user and producer.

At present, Latinum is hosted gratis on mypodcast.com, however the long-term future of the host provider can not be assured, although at present the future of the site appears secure. At some point in the future it may be necessary to move Latinum to a different structure, however, this will only be done if absolutely necessary, as a primary objective is to keep Latinum available as a free resource.

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