want to start learning latin... where do i start?

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megas_yiannakis

want to start learning latin... where do i start?

Post by megas_yiannakis » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:18 am

hello all! :D

I have been studying Greek for the past year or so "on-off" and speak modern greek... i am really eager though to start latin... my question is simple... "where do i start?"

Are there the same troubles with latin that came with greek like the different dialects? (attic, homeric, koine etc...) is there an agreed latin pronounciation? whats a good book to start with?... should i even start learning latin now or wait till my grasp on greek is better?

and help is appreciated...

Iwannis :D

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Post by thesaurus » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:01 am

I'm in a similar situation to you, except I've been studying Latin for a year and am now trying to pick up Greek. My advice is based purely on my own experience learning Latin, but it has worked well for me. I would suggest combing a traditional grammar book with Lingua Latina, by Hans Orberg. Lingua Latina uses immersive learning, and you learn Latin as you read. There is no English, but it is structured in such a way that you'll easily pick it up. I recommend reading Lingua Latina Volume I, and then Wheelock's Latin (a traditional grammar). This will cement and expand the grammatical knowledge you picked up from LL. After that you'd easily be able to read Caesar or other authors. There is also a second volume of Lingua Latina, but I haven't used it yet.

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Post by Kasper » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:10 am

I would say to get one book and finish it. Rather than getting yourself a whole bunch of different grammars and readers and all that stuff, just get one book and finish it. I've never used Lingua Latina but many people here seem pretty keen on it, so maybe that's a good start. If you'd rather not spend that much money, download one from Textkit. But just be disciplined and work all the way through it. After that I'd recommend reading a ton of long texts (this will be hard at first) combined some prose composition.

Anyway, that's just my opinion.
“Cum ego verbo utar,” Humpty Dumpty dixit voce contempta, “indicat illud quod optem – nec plus nec minus.”
“Est tamen rogatio” dixit Alice, “an efficere verba tot res indicare possis.”
“Rogatio est, “Humpty Dumpty responsit, “quae fiat magister – id cunctum est.”

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Post by thesaurus » Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:16 am

To clarify, I don't mean that you should try to study Wheelock's and Lingua Latina at the same time. Kasper is right: successfully completing any single textbook will be the best thing you can do. Chose either a grammar or a reader based on your learning style, and then stick with it until the bitter end.

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Post by Tertius Robertus » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:50 pm

Are there the same troubles with latin that came with greek like the different dialects? (attic, homeric, koine etc...)
no. the only analogous comparision one would draw, would be the medieval vs classical. this is the language of caesar virgil et cetera, that the language of the vulgate, of the church fathers and the scholastics. learning classical will open the possibility of knowing the two, while confining the medieval would make it harder to read classical, for the laguage is more complex.
is there an agreed latin pronounciation?
for pronunciation you could see the myriad of threads that has been opened on the subject, specilally the "audio thread" which has sample audio from the folks

***
the books that are widely recommend in the forum are, beside lingva latina, d'ooge, avaible here at the forum, and on which you should take a quick look, wheelock and latin a intensive course. whichever be your choice do hear kasper.

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Post by klewlis » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:39 pm

I've used wheelock and find it rather boring, but that is just me. It is (apparently ;) a good textbook. But we also have some devotees of d'ooge, which is available for free on this site. check the "learn latin" link above to find that and other books.

I'm another one who likes to combine learning grammar with reading graduated texts. I have been using the Cambridge Latin Course as a reader, and find it very helpful and entertaining.

megas_yiannakis

Post by megas_yiannakis » Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:02 am

thank you everybody for your help... :D from what people have said 'LL' sounds like the way to go... i checked the books out on the internet and there seems to be like.. 3 or 4 books to the first set... which will i "need"?

then again though these next three years are going to get hectic at school for me so im thinking maybe to start with the latin text book available here... which i think prepares one for reading caesar... and i am very eager to start reading some of his stuff...

does the fact that i use modern greek pronounciation in my ancient greek say anything about what latin pronounciation i might use? obviously i use modern because it is my mother tounge but basically i want a pronounciation that is going to let me understand the morphology the best... and from that understand the links between latin, greek, and other indo-european languages... so in that case im thinking classical? even though from what ive heard ecclesiastical sounds nicer...

//Iwannis :D

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Post by Gonzalo » Wed Jul 11, 2007 12:53 pm

Hi, John.
The books which you have referred to about Lingua Latina per se illustrata are "complementary". The first aim of the course is make you able to read Latin by means of reading Latin. At first you start with Familia Romana and after that, Roma Aeterna. I think the other books are such as index, vocabulary lists, etc. The first set, strictly consists in "Familia Romana". I will recieve the second book in two days (I am impatient), which I will use like a secondary source of lectures.
By the way, I would recommend you -when you have studied something- to read the dialogues LLuis Vives, Erasmus Rotterodamus, Aelius Antonius Nebrissensis, etc.

Χαι?ετε, ῶ Ιωάνης !

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Post by Lucus Eques » Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:32 pm

I definitely recommend Lingua Latina — I've written about it ad nauseum here; you should be able to find my comments easily enough. Athenaze has been great for learning Greek; the Italian-produced version is much like Lingua Latina, if you can get your hands on it.
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Post by Gonzalo » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:17 am

I knew about Athénaze in a Spanish version two years ago. I found it very nice. IT provides you exercises, texts (in progressive difficulty) and grammar. It was based in Athénaze, it wasn´t the Athénaze, and it was published by Oxford Press. I think it was a scholar book.

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Post by Interaxus » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:54 am

Gonzalo, thanks for the tip! Look what I found:

http://www.vivariumnovum.it/athenaze.htm

Check out the generous supply of sample pages (capitolo VI for example). What an elegant Italian variation on the Örbergian method! I just HAVE to own that book!

Sorry, I know this thread is supposed to be about Latin, but I just couldn't resist.

As for Latin, Iwannis, you could do worse than use Ritchie's Fabulae Faciles as complementary reading materials. That way you get a refresher course in ancient myths (Perseus, Hercules, the Argonauts, Ulysses) as an added bonus - and the Latin is largely based on Caesar's. If only there were an Örberg version of this volume! 8)

Cheers,
Int

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Post by ingrid70 » Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:33 am

Interaxus wrote:Gonzalo, thanks for the tip! Look what I found:

http://www.vivariumnovum.it/athenaze.htm

Check out the generous supply of sample pages (capitolo VI for example). What an elegant Italian variation on the Örbergian method! I just HAVE to own that book!
Cheers,
Int
If I could speak Italian, I'd buy it straight away!

Ingrid

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Post by Gonzalo » Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:59 am

Interaxus wrote:Gonzalo, thanks for the tip! Look what I found:

http://www.vivariumnovum.it/athenaze.htm

Check out the generous supply of sample pages (capitolo VI for example). What an elegant Italian variation on the Örbergian method! I just HAVE to own that book!

Sorry, I know this thread is supposed to be about Latin, but I just couldn't resist.

As for Latin, Iwannis, you could do worse than use Ritchie's Fabulae Faciles as complementary reading materials. That way you get a refresher course in ancient myths (Perseus, Hercules, the Argonauts, Ulysses) as an added bonus - and the Latin is largely based on Caesar's. If only there were an Örberg version of this volume! 8)

Cheers,
Int
Yes, Interaxus, it seems very good. The method I referred intendes to be an adaptation to Spanish from the English method. The explanations are in Spanish, that´s the only difference.
I worked with it for a time. I just only came across no far to XIX Lesson. I believe this is the book used in Spanish&Italian High Schools. It is not in the exact way as Orberg; Athénaze uses explanations in your own idiom, but it provides you of the easiest lectures, in a principle. The level is progressively developing by itself.

Ingrid, there is an English version. Don´t worry.
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchR ... =t&y=0&x=0

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Post by Lucus Eques » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:37 am

But the English version has no pictures or marginal notes. It's rather lifeless, actually, from what I've seen on the internet. It's like two completely different books, I feel.
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Post by Gonzalo » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:49 am

Of course. The English Athénaze is not very didactic (at the level of Orberg Lingua Latina, I want to say). The Spanish version is too similar respect the English Athénaze book. The Italian Athénaze is really better, without doubt; but, if you cannot speak or understand Italian, you would have an alternative with the other one.

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Post by ingrid70 » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:47 pm

Oh, I do have other books to learn Greek from (either in Dutch or English), but as Lucus says, the Italian version is strongly based on Lingua Latina, which I use and like a lot

Ingrid

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Post by Gonzalo » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:53 pm

Ok, Ingrid, it was an idea... but, if you already know Latin, you would be able to do a little effort to learn Italian. I have learnt it from my native Spanish, and I am learning Latin -after I had learnt Italian- and it is more easier.

Regards,
Gonzalo

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Post by Lucus Eques » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:01 pm

The ancillary elements only are in Italian, as well as the translations of vocabulary, but a simple Greek dictionary could be just as useful for any new words that aren't self evident from the text — though knowing Italian is helpful. ;)
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Post by Gonzalo » Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:21 pm

http://books.google.com/books?id=DegDAA ... k&as_brr=1
I have just found this course. It does not provide you pictures but it is interesting.

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Post by Interaxus » Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:33 am

Whether you go for the 'boring' English version of Athenaze or the exquisite Italian enhancement à la Örberg, you can download audio files of all the vocab and texts FOR FREE from:

http://leserables.tripod.com/

Also useful (for novices like myself) is the Teacher’s handbook with English translations of all the texts. You can BUY it here:

http://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwo ... 20Book%201

Also, Ingrid, take this chance to learn a bit of Italian. Leopardi awaits you (E il naufragar m’è dolce in questo mare ...) !!!

Gonzalo: you really do come up with amazing finds ...

Cheers,

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Post by Gonzalo » Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:49 am

Giacomo Leopardi
viewtopic.php?t=7229
viewtopic.php?p=58211&highlight=#58211(at the end)

Image
The whole Kant´s Ethics are concentred in the final statement:
(...) Così tra questa
immensità s'annega il pensier mio:
e il naufragar m'è dolce in questo mare.

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Post by Interaxus » Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:15 pm

Gonzalo: Thanks for the links. How close Italian is to Latin! I seem to hear echoes of ’naufragar’ in Leopardi’s Latin exercises? For example:

From Exercitatio 1. (tempestatis narratio)
O spes meae perditae! Evanuit tandem tempestatis FRAGOR, eumque reliquit suum infortunium ad commiserandum, atque iram Dei pertimescendam.

From exercitatio 4. (rus itinerationis descriptio)
Incipit laetitia se meo vultu clarere. Iam Matris vocem, rotarumque audio FRAGOREM, quae me jubent rus proficisci. Gaudio igitur exuberans currus gradus conscendo. Iamque pulvis rerum aspectus obducit, saxaque FRANGUNTUR ferratis rotis.

I’m assuming that the ‘frag’ in ‘fragor, fragoris’ (noise, crash) is the same ‘frag’ as in ‘fragilis’ (breakable) and that it is related to ‘frango, frangere, fregi, fractus’ (break, shatter, etc) - and to 'naufragar'.

I haven’t had time to check out ‘L'arte poetica di orazio’ yet, not to mention Kant´s Ethics! But once again, gratias agimus tibi!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBFSoVE3w6E

Cheers,
Int

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Post by Gonzalo » Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:21 pm

Nice to read about a man with intellectual incursions like yours.

frango, fregi, fractu(m) (present, p.perfect, supine)... in Spanish we have "fragor", word introducted by D. Luis de Góngora from the Latin (such as others, even from Greek: áspid(? áσπις, shield), caverna (Polifemo, verso 36), candor (Polifemo, verso 88, Soledades II, 631), excelsa (Polifemo, verso 490), joven (Polifemo, verso 491 y Soledades I, verso 222), conculcado(Polifemo, v. 469, y Soledad I, 415), fulminar(Polifemo, verso 359), errantes (Polifemo, verso 164 y Soledad I, verso 403) and so on.

I am sorry, but I have laughed a lot. Not by Giacomo Puccini, but because of I understood what the singer was saying... Really, I prefer Giaocino Rossini (really... really... Marin Marais).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYUdixQGF0w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT9tD5LZGM0 (by Jordi Savall)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5e_sKM3 ... olityka.pl

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Post by Interaxus » Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:15 pm

Gonzalo: Thanks for the compliment (may I return it!) and for the YouTube concert.

I also watched the aria from The Thieving Magpie:
http://www.evertube.com/videos/watch/gz ... ladra.html

On the theme of Baroque music, have you read ‘Rameau’s Nephew’ by Diderot?
http://www.mala.bc.ca/~Johnstoi/diderot/rameau_E.htm
(R. being the guy who finally ‘upstaged’ 17th-century Lully in 18th century France.

You have tempted me to read my first Góngora poem,‘Ande yo caliente’. :D Fun! Must read more. Any recommendations? By the way, I notice that the Wikipedia entry in English is in desperate need of a proofreader.

Cheers,
Peter

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Post by Gonzalo » Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:29 pm

I would not ever recommend you to use Wikipedia. It is a Web Page (let me say, I was creating articles at the Spanish Wikipedia) which makes (by means of a simply click) doctissimi, who were stultissimi and I prefer the books, the libraries (Biblioteca Nacional of Madrid, Http://www.bne.es), etc. Well, I beg you to read the studies, at first, of the great Dámaso Alonso and the other expert on Góngora, Robert Jammes. I also beg you not for "reading-at-bed" Góngora´s poetry, but study it. I invite you to begin with the studies of Dámaso Alonso (In principle: La lengua poética de Góngora, Estudios y ensayos gongorinos, Góngora y el Polifemo) and les Etudes sur l´oeuvre poetique de D. Luis de Góngora by Robert Jammes (try to buy it as a second-hand book, new it costs around 80-90 euros: http://www.iberlibro.com/servlet/Search ... &ds=30&x=0)

Essais by Dámaso Alonso (I also recommend you to read his "Studies on stylistical limits" -Dámaso was a great Philologist and Poet; read his "Filii irae"): http://www.iberlibro.com/servlet/Search ... &ds=30&x=0

Góngora: http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/FichaAu ... 1_Facsimil

In order to understand the whole Culteranism movement is indispensable the book "Antología de la Poesía Culterana" (http://www.iberlibro.com/servlet/BookDe ... D0%26x%3D0), where the Spainyard Poet ?ngel Pariente, provides you of a expensive file of culteranist poets. Such as the great Francisco de Trillo y Figueroa (Neapolisea, his prologue is an important treatise on Poetics): http://www.juntadeandalucia.es/cultura/ ... d?path=839

Cordially,
Gonzalo

P.S.: I am sorry, but I am not specially full of pride for the "Enlightenment" (specially the French Englightenment); well, I have read some authors but I am not very interested (in the other hand, I have studied the whole works of Jovellanos and Benito Jerónimo Feijoo) because of its hypocresy (yes) and its intrinsic masonic trends.
Try this: ; - ) http://tuttotempolibero.altervista.org/ ... rarca.html

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Post by LisaNYork » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:55 pm

Hi,

I would also get a copy of the "Exercitia Latina", which will give you further practice in grammar, vocabulary, and comprehension. There is an answer key for this, and also one for the "Pensa", which are the end-of-chapter questions in the text.

I buy all of my LL materials from Focus Publishing, here in the US. Great group of people.

LL is an *excellent* text. I am using it for my own self-study of Latin.

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