Lingua Latina Cap XI

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acarrig
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Lingua Latina Cap XI

Post by acarrig » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:33 am

I've been doing pretty well with Lingua Latina until now. I just read the post about frustration with Latin and the importance of not being too strict with grammar. But I cannot move on to the next chapter until I understand the grammar of what I am reading. I've been able to figure it out so far with some grammar books and dictionaries I have, but I am stumped in this chapter (11). I hope posting the questions will help speed me along :wink:

55 Nec modo pede, sed etiam capite aeger est.

I read this to mean: Not only the foot, but also the head is unwell. Is this correct? Why are pede and capite in the ablative?

116 Medicus dicit 'Quintum spirare et cor eius palpitare.'

I read this to mean: The doctor says that Quintus is breathing and his heart is beating. Why is Quintum in the accusative?

134 Aemilia non putat medicum puerum aegrum sanare posse.

I read this to mean: Aemilia does not think the doctor is able to heal the hurt boy. Why is posse in the infinitive?

Thanks for any help.

BTW, I am neglecting my study of Wheelock's for Lingua Latina. That can't be good....can it? I am able to read through and understand pretty well. Simpler sentences I am able to read without translating to English. This is thrilling. Should I worry that I could not produce the Latin as well? I read over the Pensa, but I can't check my answers (are these online anywhere?) I have a nagging feeling about pushing on, but then I think, What could be the harm of it? Wheelock's isn't going anywhere. Am I just too stuck on this way of learning Latin from my (much beloved) Latin professor from college? I am wondering this now from reading the recent posts on frustration with Latin.

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Re: Lingua Latina Cap XI

Post by Amadeus » Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:28 pm

acarrig wrote:55 Nec modo pede, sed etiam capite aeger est.
This is called the "ablativus limitationis". Here it limits the adjective in that Quintus is not aeger in a general way, but specifically because his head and foot are hurting.
Why is Quintum in the accusative? ... Why is posse in the infinitive?
Read the Grammatica Latina at the end of that chapter and you'll get an explanation, a simple expalantion, but that should be enough.
BTW, I am neglecting my study of Wheelock's for Lingua Latina. That can't be good....can it?
Uh, yes it can! In fact, I think that's the way to go. Keep it simple, dude.

:wink:

Vale!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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Re: Lingua Latina Cap XI

Post by cdm2003 » Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:32 pm

acarrig wrote: 116 Medicus dicit 'Quintum spirare et cor eius palpitare.'

I read this to mean: The doctor says that Quintus is breathing and his heart is beating. Why is Quintum in the accusative?
It is a typical construction for an indirect statement. "The doctor says THAT Quitus is breathing and his heart is beating." It's still a single sentence, the subject and predicate being Medicus dicit and the direct object is actually what the doctor said--the entire indirect quote. Note that it would look a lot different were it a direct quote: Medicus dixit "Quintus spirat et cor eius palpitat."

Since you've got Wheelock's, check out chapter 25's discussion of the infinitive with indirect statement with accusative subject (p. 164-6 in the latest edition). They explain it much better than I.
134 Aemilia non putat medicum puerum aegrum sanare posse.

I read this to mean: Aemilia does not think the doctor is able to heal the hurt boy. Why is posse in the infinitive?
Once again, it's the same type of construction as with the indirect quote: "Aemilia does not think THAT the doctor is able to cure her sick boy." The subject is Aemilia, the predicate non putat, and the object the remainder of the sentence, or, in this case, what Aemilia is thinking. Once again, check the Wheelock site listed above for a highly detailed explanation.
BTW, I am neglecting my study of Wheelock's for Lingua Latina. That can't be good....can it? I am able to read through and understand pretty well. Simpler sentences I am able to read without translating to English. This is thrilling.
Personally, I use Wheelock and M&F to supplement what I learn in LL. So, if there is a construction that isn't familiar to me or doesn't "click" in my mind while reading about good ol' Marcus and Quintus, I look it up and read the more thorough explanation in my reference grammars. I don't hammer out the exercises in either anymore, though there was a time when I did all of the ones in M&F. I do not, however, let myself proceed to the next chapter in LL without making sure that I understand the grammar.
Should I worry that I could not produce the Latin as well?
It's all up to you. If you're learning on your own, you may have no desire to compose Latin...you may just want to read the Classics in their original language, in which case an emphasis on writing isn't entirely necessary. If you wish to be able to write Latin prose, poetry, etc., it's best to acclimate yourself to it as you go through LL. Spend time with PENSVM C in each chapter and write out each answer fully. It's a good start.
I read over the Pensa, but I can't check my answers (are these online anywhere?)
The answers can be found in the LL Teacher's Manual. It contains the answers to all pensa, in both LL I and II, as well as the answers to all of the additional exercises found in the supplemental Exercitae. It's available on Amazon, through Pullins, and I'm certain your local bookstore could order it for you.
I have a nagging feeling about pushing on, but then I think, What could be the harm of it? Wheelock's isn't going anywhere. Am I just too stuck on this way of learning Latin from my (much beloved) Latin professor from college? I am wondering this now from reading the recent posts on frustration with Latin.
There is certainly no harm in just proceeding according to your enjoyment, if you're not in any class. In fact, if you're not enjoying it, you are almost guaranteed to give it up eventually. Leisurely go through LL if that's what you want to do...you'll learn a ton and can fill in the blanks (if any exist) later if you desire. Learning a language is a tough enterprise for some of us...I know it is for me. My beloved Latin teachers all had differing methods...one even used a textbook written in 1659. However, even the textbook written in 1659 uses a teaching method very similar to that of LL...tried and true...it's worked for almost 400 years...you can't argue against that. :wink:

Best,
Chris

::I edited this to remove what Amadeus better explained :wink: ::
Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae

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Re: Lingua Latina Cap XI

Post by acarrig » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:39 pm

cdm2003 wrote:Since you've got Wheelock's, check out chapter 25's discussion of the infinitive with indirect statement with accusative subject (p. 164-6 in the latest edition). They explain it much better than I.
Thanks for this. I had a little explanation of this in another book, but this one in Wheelock's is much better. I had also looked at the grammatica latina. I certainly wouldn't ask without trying to figure it out on my own :) I didn't recognize what I was seeing in those sentences - couldn't put it together.
The answers can be found in the LL Teacher's Manual. It contains the answers to all pensa, in both LL I and II, as well as the answers to all of the additional exercises found in the supplemental Exercitae. It's available on Amazon, through Pullins, and I'm certain your local bookstore could order it for you.
I didn't realize there was so much to go with LL until I looked after reading this reply. I'll have to get some of those books!
There is certainly no harm in just proceeding according to your enjoyment, if you're not in any class. In fact, if you're not enjoying it, you are almost guaranteed to give it up eventually.


Wheelock's isn't the same without my professor from college (I only took a semester and a half, but it was great). LL is more enjoyable for me on my own. I'll just get the answers to the Pensa so that I can get a better handle on what I'm learning than I am currently getting.

Thanks for the help!

Angilee

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Post by Turendil » Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:55 pm

what textboook was that? written in 1659?
phpbb

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Post by cdm2003 » Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:33 pm

Turendil wrote:what textboook was that? written in 1659?
I think it was one of the first books that went of the idea that people learn languages better with pictures rather than "bonus, -a, -um = good." Now, she didn't give us kiddies actual surviving books :shock: but she did give us copies of copies of copies...

Anyway, it's called "Orbis Sensualium Pictus: A World of Things Obvious to the Senses Drawn in Pictures." It was written by a dutchman named Johann Commenius and then tranlated into English by Charles Hoole. The first English publication was in 1659. Here is a pic from the first page describing the Latin alphabet:

Image

I'll try and put some more pics of it up if you're interested.

Best,
Chris
Horum omnium fortissimi sunt Belgae

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Re: Lingua Latina Cap XI

Post by acarrig » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:37 pm

Amadeus wrote:
acarrig wrote:55 Nec modo pede, sed etiam capite aeger est.
This is called the "ablativus limitationis". Here it limits the adjective in that Quintus is not aeger in a general way, but specifically because his head and foot are hurting.
Hello. I've been thinking about this. I've tried to find other examples in LL in the same chapter and the next one, but I haven't. Usually there are several examples when LL introduces something. Maybe I'm not paying careful attention. So I take it to mean "because of" or "due to". Anyway, tell me if this works:

Marcus et Quintus Aemiliae rosas dant. Aemilia Quinto et Marco laeta est.

Does this mean that Aemilia is not just happy in a general way - but happy because of Quintus and Marcus?

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Post by Tertius Robertus » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:53 pm

Does this mean that Aemilia is not just happy in a general way - but happy because of Quintus and Marcus?
yep

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Post by ingrid70 » Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:43 pm

cdm2003 wrote:
Anyway, it's called "Orbis Sensualium Pictus: A World of Things Obvious to the Senses Drawn in Pictures." It was written by a dutchman named Johann Commenius and then tranlated into English by Charles Hoole. The first English publication was in 1659.

I'll try and put some more pics of it up if you're interested.

Best,
Chris
You can find a later copy of this book on Google books here

Ingrid[/url]

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Re: Lingua Latina Cap XI

Post by Amadeus » Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:49 pm

acarrig wrote:Hello. I've been thinking about this. I've tried to find other examples in LL in the same chapter and the next one, but I haven't.
Huh. You know what? Forget about the ablativus limitationis. It isn't explained until LL Roma Aeterna. I looked into the first book, and there it is called ablativus causae.
So I take it to mean "because of" or "due to".
Yes, that's the ablativus causae. As regards the ablativus limitationis, not quite. When you say: "Hoc monstrum, nomine Minotaurus" Nomine here is a.l., and it doesn't translate into "because of" or "due to". But, again, don't pay any attention to me. I'll just confuse you more. Stick with what LL is teaching you at this point.

Vale!
Lisa: Relax?! I can't relax! Nor can I yield, relent, or... Only two synonyms? Oh my God! I'm losing my perspicacity! Aaaaa!

Homer: Well it's always in the last place you look.

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