Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

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Cathexis
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Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Cathexis » Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:49 pm

Maybe I've been listening to too many old movies<wink>,

Example: Rationibus. Is this always rah-tee-o-nee-bus or can it be ra-shun-ee-bus? (like Eng. "ration.")

TIA,

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Hylander
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Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Hylander » Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:36 pm

Only in the old-fashioned and discredited English pronunciation of Latin.

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Cathexis
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Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Cathexis » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:47 pm

I knew it! Too much "Mr. Chips", etc.

Thanks!

Cathexis
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Cathexis
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Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Cathexis » Sat Apr 27, 2019 12:49 pm

I should have waited one more day to ask,

After some recent discussion in another thread, I found a copy of Nutting's Primer, 1911 for sale on Ebay for $9.96.
I ordered it and received it yesterday. The Guide to Pronunciation is in the back as Appendix I. Right there it said,
"T always as in tin(never as in rational.)"

So there you go,

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Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Callisper » Sat Apr 27, 2019 4:18 pm

Cathexis wrote:
Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:49 pm
always
How could we possibly know?

You will be able to find people at various levels of expertise, up to the highest, with ideas about alternative pronunciations in certain environments.

These ideas have nothing going for them but subjective opinion regarding euphony. But some of them are probably right (just looking at probabilities).

I'm sure my opinion of pronouncing rationibus with "shun" because "ration" is pronounced that way in English needn't be stated.

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Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Hylander » Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:36 pm

How could we possibly know?
We can be pretty certain that -tio(n-) was pronounced as two syllable because pronouncing it as a single syllable wouldn't scan in Latin verse.

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Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Callisper » Tue Apr 30, 2019 5:27 pm

Hylander wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 12:36 pm
We can be pretty certain that -tio(n-) was pronounced as two syllable because pronouncing it as a single syllable wouldn't scan in Latin verse.
Indeed! I stand mistaken.

My point of course was more generally intended.

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Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Hylander » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:13 pm

Ancient Latin pronunciation is pretty well understood. Allen's Vox Latina lays it out along with the evidence.

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Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by Callisper » Wed May 01, 2019 2:38 pm

That evidence is far too thin on the ground to make statements about a given grapheme "always" being pronounced a certain way.

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Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?

Post by jeidsath » Wed May 01, 2019 3:33 pm

On pg. 51 of Vox Latina, Allen mentions that short i may have had a closer quality before vowels. Compare, he mentions, Latin dies -> Italian/Old French di, quī -> chi/qui.
These closer pre-vocalic qualities of e and i are probably due to the y-'glide' which automatically follows them in these conditions–and which the English speaker will automatically produce.
Footnote:
There seems to have been a similar effect on u before a vowel (e.g. in duo), due to an automatic w-'glide'.
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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