Is there a way to distinguish the two meanings of this sentence?

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Lord_WayneY
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Is there a way to distinguish the two meanings of this sentence?

Post by Lord_WayneY »

The sentence, "Magistrae multae discipulae sunt", could be translated as "The teacher has many students", but it seems also quite right if interpreted as "The student has many teachers". Is there a way to distinguish these two?

So far as I know, Latin is considered as an inflectional language that the word order does not matter the meaning of the sentence. But in this case, should we take the word order into account when trying to get the meaning?
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seneca2008
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Re: Is there a way to distinguish the two meanings of this sentence?

Post by seneca2008 »

Two hints: What case and gender do you think Magistrae is? The nominative singular of “master” is magister (m).

Where there is ambiguity in a sentence the meaning comes from the context. If there is no context then it’s undecidable.

You might find the following helpful in understanding why the dative might be used instead of the genitive and it’s significance.

Allen and Greenough Dative of Possession 373.

The Dative is used with esse and similar words to denote Possession: -
est mihi domí pater (Eccl. iii.33), I have a father at home (there is to me).
hominí cum deó similitúdó est (Legg. i. 25), man has a likeness to God.
quibus opés núllae sunt (Sall. Cat. 37), [those] who have no wealth.

NOTE: The Genitive or a Possessive with esse emphasizes the possessor; the Dative, the fact of possession: as, - liber est meus, the book is MINE (and no one's else); est mihi liber, I HAVE a book (among other things).
.........cut......
NOTE: In early Latin the dative is usual; Cicero prefers the nominative, Livy the dative; Sallust uses the dative only. In later Latin the genitive also occurs (cf. § 343. d): as, - Q. Metelló Macedonicí nómen inditum est (Vell. i. 11), to Quintus Metellus the name of Macedonius was given.

b. Désum takes the dative; so occasionally absum (which regularly has the ablative): -

hóc únum Caesarí défuit (B. G. iv. 26), this only was lacking to Caesar.


quid huic abesse poterir (De Or. i. 48), what can be wanting to him?
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

Hylander
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Re: Is there a way to distinguish the two meanings of this sentence?

Post by Hylander »

Allen & Geenough 598b:
b. Numeral adjectives, adjectives of quantity, demonstrative, relative, and interrogative pronouns and adverbs, tend to precede the word or words to which they belong:—

“cum aliquā perturbātiōne ” (Off. 1.137) , with SOME disturbance.
“ hōc ūnō praestāmus ” (De Or. 1.32) , in THIS one thing we excel.
cēterae ferē artēs, the OTHER arts.

[*] Note.--This happens because such words are usually emphatic; but often the words connected with them are more so, and in such cases the pronouns etc. yield the emphatic place:—

“ causa aliqua ” (De Or. 1.250) , some CASE.
stilus ille tuus (id. 1.257), that well-known STYLE of yours (in an antithesis; see passage). [ Ille is idiomatic in this sense and position.]
“ Rōmam quae apportāta sunt ” (Verr. 4.121) , what were carried to ROME (in contrast to what remained at Syracuse).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.04.0001

So the most natural way to read your sentence would be to take multae with discipulae, not magistrae. But the other reading is not impossible, depending on context. Latin, like all natural languages, can be ambiguous. Context sometimes helps resolve ambiguities, of course, and Roman authors would generally avoid ambiguities like this. Also, you should bear in mind that this is textbook Latin, not real Latin.

Seneca, isn't magistra, -ae a feminine noun in its own right, not an oblique case of magister?
Bill Walderman

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seneca2008
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Re: Is there a way to distinguish the two meanings of this sentence?

Post by seneca2008 »

Hylander. Yes of course you are right. I wondered if the OP was aware of the difference between magistra and magister. I admit to unconscious gender bias here. I read “teacher” and thought master and simply thought he had used the wrong noun. If he intended male teachers then of course it should be magistris and the difficulty disappears. The idea that there were many Magistrae is of course implausible (edit: in antiquity at least). 👺🤒👺
Last edited by seneca2008 on Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: Is there a way to distinguish the two meanings of this sentence?

Post by Hylander »

By the way, in response to the original post, although word order is not necessarily relevant to Latin syntactic structure, Latin word order is by no means arbitrary. Word order is very relevant to pragmatic considerations of emphasis, among other things.

You might want to read the entire section of Allen & Greenough I linked to, which gives guidance on a number of points -- not rigid or binding, universally applicable rules -- relevant to Latin word order.
Bill Walderman

Lord_WayneY
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Re: Is there a way to distinguish the two meanings of this sentence?

Post by Lord_WayneY »

Very thanks for your reply, Seneca and Hylander.

Both the teacher(s) and the student(s) are female.

I will read the links you mentioned. I found the dative case is more complex than I thought. Quite interesting.
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