Latin word order

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pin130
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Latin word order

Post by pin130 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:51 pm

I'm going through Nutting's Primer, doing the English into Latin exercises as well, my first try at composition.
I find word order difficult. I've looked at a few grammar books. It's still difficult. Anyone out there who knows a particularly good source for word order?

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Re: Latin word order

Post by bedwere » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:01 pm

It would be more useful for you to read good Latin texts until word order becomes natural.

pin130
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Re: Latin word order

Post by pin130 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:54 pm

I'm looking for some basic rules which work say 80% of the time, that when I write I can take an educated guess at the correct order.


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Re: Latin word order

Post by Nesrad » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:18 am

pin130 wrote:I'm going through Nutting's Primer, doing the English into Latin exercises as well, my first try at composition.
I find word order difficult. I've looked at a few grammar books. It's still difficult. Anyone out there who knows a particularly good source for word order?
Regarding the English to Latin exercises, since I am the one who composed the Latin sentences in the key that you are most likely using, I can tell you that the word order is usually the standard subject-object-verb. Any variation from that order is arbitrary.

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Re: Latin word order

Post by pin130 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:18 pm

Thanks Bedwere for the good reference. The author writes clearly and doesn't assume too much. I'm considering printing the entire PDF, even if the Greek part will be wasted on me.
Yes Nesrad I'm gratefully using what is probably your key. Having done both Wheelock's and Lingua Latina, I find Nutting has some advantages over both of them. Dividing the grammar into 72 chapters (rather than 40 or 36), just one grammatical point per chapter, then pounding it in with plenty of exercises, works well.
Also, limiting the vocabulary that it shouldn't get in the way of learning basic syntax is a good idea.

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Re: Latin word order

Post by bedwere » Fri Sep 21, 2018 2:28 pm

Welcome! I made an edition on Lulu, should you want a paperback:

http://www.lulu.com/shop/cecil-st-leger ... 51359.html

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Re: Latin word order

Post by HumilisAuditor » Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:14 am

Prof. Harrington of Tufts posted his "Syntax of Ancient Latin Grammar" on Github. It's great. You can find it by going to Github and searching for "Harrington." Once I'm off noob probation, I will post a link.

pin130
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Re: Latin word order

Post by pin130 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:29 am

I checked Github, searched for Harrington, but didn't find the title you suggested among the many Harrington possibilities.
Any way to narrow the search?

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Re: Latin word order

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:07 pm

Nesrad wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:18 am

Regarding the English to Latin exercises, since I am the one who composed the Latin sentences in the key that you are most likely using, I can tell you that the word order is usually the standard subject-object-verb. Any variation from that order is arbitrary.
I'm sure that you mean any variation from the word order in your answer key is arbitrary, since the word order elected by ancient authors would be far from arbitrary.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

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Re: Latin word order

Post by HumilisAuditor » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:22 pm

Pin130,

Good afternoon. I sent you a PM with a link to Prof. Harrington's syntax guide on Github. I'll post the link here later.

V/R,
HumilisAuditor

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Re: Latin word order

Post by HumilisAuditor » Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:41 pm

Also, Prof. Dexter Hoyos has a very good book, How to Read Latin Fluently. The book contains his 10 Basic Rules for Reading Latin, which addresses word order. The rules themselves were posted with Prof. Hoyos's permission at LatinTeach dot SeeOhEm. You could probably find his used book online or there's also a pdf of his book floating around the internet.

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Re: Latin word order

Post by pin130 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:54 pm

Thanks for the links. I've printed out both pdf's. They both look of interest. I'm presently working through M&F's Latin Intensive
which is taking up all my language-spare-moments. The grammar therein is concise but clear.

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Re: Latin word order

Post by Callisper » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:27 pm

Do you have much experience reading (and are just now coming to composition) or are you just new to Latin in general, self-teaching and think composition is a good way to start?

If the latter - I don't disagree but I think (as bedwere maybe implied?) you should banish any consideration for word-order from your head. Just reading that answer key should make some of the principles its author used implicitly clear (including SVO, but not just that - I haven't seen it but no doubt if the author read some Latin he was instinctively influenced to produce Latin in accordance with it to at least an extent - you'll be able to absorb some basics for sure); and for the time being just trust you don't need any more accuracy. In general reading Latin is the way for a beginner to get that 80% grasp on word-order. In fact, it's for the remaining 20% that it's worth turning to material written on Latin word-order.

You will find until you start reading that you cannot supply the 80% from rules in books. If you have any experience learning any other language reflect on that and this will rapidly become apparent.

On the other hand, if you are an experienced reader and just starting composition, and would like some codification of word-order, let me know and I'll try to suggest some material. That is how I feel a lot - the idea that everything you need to know comes from just reading is a beggar's game; a comfortable reader who is interested in philology (or composition etc) should be deconstructing and reconstructing everything as thoroughly as they can.

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Re: Latin word order

Post by pin130 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:18 pm

Thanks Callisper for your advice. I have strayed from composition, for the time being, because I'm going through M&F's Latin Intensive. I'll be happy if I can just translate the Latin into English as the book rapidly advances and with many exercises.
The volume though is an advantage in that one sees the whole of the paradigms in one shot, with fairly clear grammatical explanations. As a kind of beginning intermediate review it might be the best thing out there

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Re: Latin word order

Post by RandyGibbons » Fri Mar 15, 2019 8:49 pm

Well, I just replied to your "Is this reading Caesar" post, and now I see this!

Just as in that reply I heartily seconded Aetos' recommendation of Hale, here I heartily second HumilisAuditor's recommendation of Dexter Hoyos. In fact, it was the combination of Hale and Hoyos that I blogged about.

I was corresponding with Hoyos when I wrote that blog, and at the time it seemed, to his chagrin, that the pamphlet had gone out of print. I'm delighted to see it again on Amazon, and I strongly suggest you read the entire pamphlet and not just the rules, which are rather sterile just taken by themselves.

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Re: Latin word order

Post by pin130 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:21 pm

Thanks Randy for your two posts. I saw the second before the first. I'll make another post when I have time to digest them.

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Re: Latin word order

Post by pin130 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:28 pm

OK, now I've read both posts from you, Randy, in the order they were written. Seven months of water has passed under the bridge since I was trying to read Caesar. I gave up in the chapter 13-14 area of book one, if I remember correctly, when the indirect discourse gets really heavy. I decided that you were correct, if indeed "harsh", when you clobbered me for trying Caesar without mastering the paradigms. So I went through Nutting's grammar and now M&F's Latin Intensive, where the going is slow, in an attempt to get down those paradigms. M&F is pretty good at hammering away what needs to be hammered, so who knows, maybe it will finally stick to the slippery surface of my mind. But as you said, mastery of the paradigms is a prerequisite for Hale and Hoyos' method. I'm a little confused though, that Hoyos' pamphlet is under 30 pages in a copy I found on Scribd, and over 70 pages in the copy you referred to on Amazon. I wonder if it is actually more complete, or have the typesetters used a larger font and big margins to created a book from a pamphlet?

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Re: Latin word order

Post by RandyGibbons » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:51 pm

I don't know about the version on Scribd, but my copy of the original (Hoyle) pamphlet is 70 pages (69 to be exact), and that seems to be what's there on Amazon.

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Re: Latin word order

Post by RandyGibbons » Sun Mar 17, 2019 8:54 pm

By the way, just for clarification, when you say "paradigms", are you talking just about noun declensions and verb conjugations, or are you including syntax patterns also?

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Re: Latin word order

Post by pin130 » Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:27 pm

I guess I was referring mostly to noun declensions and verb conjugations. Syntax is not so much a matter of memorization as it is a recognition of those "patterns" once you are aware they exit. I find keeping memorized lists in place in my mind over time the most difficult part. As for Hoyos, I made a mistake. The Scribd edition is 64 pages long.

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Re: Latin word order

Post by RandyGibbons » Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:20 pm

I find keeping memorized lists in place in my mind over time the most difficult part.
Indeed, and I guess the assumption is that while memorizing you're simultaneously reading Latin, whether from a textbook or a primer or an ancient work.

In any case, that's why I at least suggest to adult autodidacts that they consider writing out the declensions (at least) and the conjugations 100 times each. I did that when I started resurrecting my college Latin several years ago. I still have the three-ring notebook to remind me of this self-inflicted torture. At the time I had a high-pressure, long-hours, travel-every-week job, a kid in high school, a house to maintain, and all the usual pulls on my time, but somehow I managed to do it, and my conclusion was that it was a much more effective way to permanently drill those suckers into my brain and be done with it.

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Re: Latin word order

Post by pin130 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:07 am

I'm staggered by the prospect--writing all that 100 times over. After working the last thirty years with my hands, they're not as steady as they once were. I wonder if typing would make a similar impression on the mind, or maybe one must suffer a little more to succeed.

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Re: Latin word order

Post by RandyGibbons » Tue Mar 19, 2019 10:40 am

"One must suffer to succeed" - I like that :lol: .

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Re: Latin word order

Post by scotistic » Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:18 pm

παθηματα μαθηματα

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Re: Latin word order

Post by HumilisAuditor » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:30 am

Pin130,

I've heard that writing is a more effective at memory retention than typing on a computer. And of course, reciting (even if softly) while writing or typing helps.

HumilisAuditor

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