What are these subjunctives?

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Nesrad
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What are these subjunctives?

Post by Nesrad » Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:10 am

"sed ego ex te quaero, quoniam idem tu certe fecisses, nonne intellegas eo maiorem vim esse
naturae, quod ipsi vos, qui omnia ad vestrum commodum et, ut ipsi dicitis, ad voluptatem referatis, tamen
ea faciatis, e quibus appareat non voluptatem vos, sed officium sequi, plusque rectam naturam quam rationem pravam valere." (Cic. Fin. 2.58)

My best guess:
intellegas = subj. of indirect question
referatis, faciatis, appareat = modal attraction

mwh
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Re: What are these subjunctives?

Post by mwh » Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:37 pm

Yes I think that’s right, if I understand what you mean by modal attraction. intelligas ind.qu. dep. on quaero (the nonne the same as if it were direct), and the following clauses (apart from the parenthetical ut ipsi dicitis) themselves part of the question and hence subjunctive. I take it that fecisses in the introductory clause is also to be understood as part of the question, though that’s not apparent from the syntax itself.

Hylander
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Re: What are these subjunctives?

Post by Hylander » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:37 am

Is fecisses part of the indirect question? I read it as a contrafactual: "I ask you, since you would have done the same thing, whether . . .

Nesrad
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Re: What are these subjunctives?

Post by Nesrad » Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:21 am

Fecisses didn't pose a problem for me, I see it as a contrary-to-fact conditional sentence with omission of the protasis: i.e. You would have done the same thing if called upon by a dying friend to transmit an inheritance to his wife, but you were never put into such a situation (contrary-to-fact). Isn't syntax fun?

mwh
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Re: What are these subjunctives?

Post by mwh » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:13 am

Certainly, as I indicated, there’s nothing in the Latin to show that fecisses is part of the indirect question. Either way it’s “contrafactual." But isn’t he saying not “I ask you, since you’d have done the same, (whether) you don’t understand that …” but “I ask you (whether) since you’d have done the same you don’t understand …”? The syntax is ambiguous. It doesn’t make a whole lot of difference, but I think the point is sharper the way I read it.

Nesrad
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Re: What are these subjunctives?

Post by Nesrad » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:42 pm

Thanks mwh, I always benefit from your answers.

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