Nutting, First Latin Reader

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Shenoute
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Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Shenoute » Sun Jan 28, 2018 3:20 pm

I have wanted to work through a Latin composition textbook for a long time in order to improve my mastery of vocabulary and grammar. After years of reading I am still dissatisfied with the speed and ease of my reading even if comprehension is good. Another consequence is that without ease of reading I don't feel that I am able to enjoy the works I read on a literary level. That is, I understand what I read but I cannot really enjoy how it is written. I have come to realize that what is preventing me to be a better reader is the lack of a firm grip on vocabulary and grammatical/syntactical features. This means I (generally) understand what I read but the very brief moments I have to spend remembering the difference between morior and moror, for instance, are making the reading slower. Should a few similar things occur in the very same sentence, and I'll probably have to reread it.

I'll work through Nutting's Latin Reader because most of the other books I have seen either assume an active knowledge of vocabulary I don't have or present too many new words at once for them to be used often enough and remembered. Nutting offers, I believe, a slower pace without the sentences being too simple (relatively of course) at the same time.

The book, however, doesn't come with a Key (as far as I know) and while I think the simple fact of working through the book should do wonders, I wouldn't mind if a kind soul could, from time to time, have a look at my miserable production. (I will find a way to copypaste Nutting's English sentences into this thread to make correction much easier).

Nutting, A Latin Reader, p. 202

Exercise I
1.
1. Rex nautas mittit, qui latebras hostium inveniant.
2. Hieme non sunt viae, quibus carri ad urbem capiantur; sed eo anni tempore equi montes facillime superant.
3. Nolite putare regem velle nobis pecuniam dare, qua naves emantur.
4. Duos annos milites in urbe morati erant; illo autem die imperator exercitum castra movere iusserat, ut in Italiam iter faceret.

2.
"In tabernaculum eamus, Quinte, librumque nostrum legamus" inquit Marcus. "Claudia dicit fabulam pulchram de tribus parvis navibus in eo esse." "Quis erat dux?" inquit Quintus. "Columbus erat dux," inquit Marcus. "Ex Hispania profectus est, ut terras ignotas peteret, et tres parvae naves eius vi fluctuum paene fractae sunt. Quidam eum errare putaverunt, sed certe vir fortissimus fuit. Age, librum legamus."

Questions/problems
- variation between is/hic: eo anni tempore/hoc anni tempore? I chose eo because hiems has already been mentioned in the sentence
- placement of autem: illo autem die/illo die autem? I think I have seen both
- since the exercise is dedicated to the use of relative clauses to express purpose, I guess number 1.4 could (should?) be something like "illo autem die imperator exercitum, qui in Italiam iter faceret, castra movere iusserat."
- Nutting gives quidem for "some people" but surely this must be a typo for quidam?
- erat/fuit, an old problem.

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Shenoute » Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:53 pm

Nutting, A Latin Reader, p. 205

Exercise II
3.
1. The king was on the point of sending a part of the other army to capture the unknown commander; but after a few hours he set out across the mountains, and on the fifth day arrived home.
Rex partem alterius exercitus missurus erat, quae ducem ignotum caperet; sed post paucis horis trans montes profectus est, quintoque die domum pervenit.

2. The settlers, who were now ready to cross the larger river, made a sailor their leader; and when at the third hour of the day they had brought the wagons by ship to the other bank, they marched quickly to the smaller hill.
Coloni, qui iam magnum flumen transire paraturi erant, nautam ducem fecerunt; et cum tertia hora diei carros navibus ad alteram ripam vexissent, ad collem parviorem celeriter iter fecerunt.

3. They are about to send men to give axes to the soldiers whom the general has allowed to break camp.
Missuri sunt eos, qui secures militibus, qui castra movere ab imperatore passi sunt, dent.

4. In summer, small towns are often destroyed with fire by the Indians; for then the settlers are working in the fields.
Aestate oppida parva saepe ab Indis igni delentur; tum enim coloni in agris laborant.

5. The inhabitants of all these cities were called Indians by Columbus.
Incolae harum urbium omnium a Columbo Indos vocati sunt.

4. " Sit down in the shade, boys," said Claudia. "Did you read that story about the ships of Columbus ?" "We have read two thirds of it," answered Quintus. "I like Columbus, but I do not like his sailors, who were very bad men ; for they even wanted to kill their commander' "But," said Marcus, "when they saw berries in the water and realized that the ship was drawing near
to some shore, then at any rate they were glad, I guess, and praised their brave leader." " Did Columbus get back to Europe safely ?" asked Quintus. "Columbus returned to Spain safely himself," replied Claudia; " but all the settlers he had left on an island, the Indians killed."

"In umbra sedite, pueri" inquit Claudia. "Legistisne fabulam de navibus Columbi?" "Duas partes legimus" inquit Quintus. "Columbum amo, nautas autem ejus non amo, qui homines pessimi erant; nam ducem suum etiam occidere volebant." "Sed," inquit Marcus, "cum bacas in aqua vidissent navemque ad litus appropinquare senserunt, certe laeti erant, opinor, ducemque fortem laudaverunt." "Incolumisne ad Europam rediit Columbus?" inquit Quintus. "Columbus ipse ad Hispaniam incolumis rediit" inquit Claudia; "omnes autem nautas quos in quadam insula reliquerat Indi interfecerunt".

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Hylander » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:45 pm

I think you could collapse some of these sentences that are separate in English to write more idiomatically, using more participles instead of relative clauses, for example, and finding ways to connect related events other than by using et.

Rex quamquam partem alterius exercitus missurus quae ducem ignotum caperet, post paucis tamen horis trans montes profectus quinto die domum pervenit.

Coloni iam maius flumen transire parati, duce facto nauta, carros tertia hora diei navibus ad alteram ripam vexerunt, unde ad collem parviorem celeriter iter fecerunt. Not quite a literal translation, but I think the ideas need to be grouped together better, as a Latin author would: preparation to cross, sailor made leader, transport of wagons -- these belong together, and the crossing itself is the main point of these events, so it should get the main verb and the other events should be subordinated in one way or another; the march to hill is a separate event, which can be joined to what precedes with a relative clause.

Missuri sunt quosdam qui secures dent militibus castra movere ab imperatore passis. I think dent shouldn't be isolated so far from the subject. Or maybe: qui militibus castra movere ab imperatore passis secures dent. Or even: militibus castra movere ab imperatore passis, missuri sunt quosdam qui secures illis dent.

Aestate colonis in agris laborantibus oppida parva saepe ab Indis igni delentur.

And while the exercises call for relative clauses of purpose, gerunds and supines might be more idiomatic in some cases.

5. Indos should be Indi.

You know Latin well enough to tackle Bradley's Arnold, which will give you a better feel for idiomatic Latin prose and will be more helpful in reading real Latin. While you're doing composition exercises, you should be concurrently reading Latin prose -- Caesar, Cicero or Livy preferably.
Last edited by Hylander on Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Barry Hofstetter » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:03 pm

Your Latin is very readable, and your goal is laudable -- active involvement in the Latin, through speaking and composition certainly does improve fluency.
Shenoute wrote:
4. Duos annos milites in urbe morati erant; illo autem die imperator exercitum castra movere iusserat, ut in Italiam iter faceret.

2.
"In tabernaculum eamus, Quinte, librumque nostrum legamus" inquit Marcus. "Claudia dicit fabulam pulchram de tribus parvis navibus in eo esse." "Quis erat dux?" inquit Quintus. "Columbus erat dux," inquit Marcus. "Ex Hispania profectus est, ut terras ignotas peteret, et tres parvae naves eius vi fluctuum paene fractae sunt. Quidam eum errare putaverunt, sed certe vir fortissimus fuit. Age, librum legamus."

Questions/problems
- since the exercise is dedicated to the use of relative clauses to express purpose, I guess number 1.4 could (should?) be something like "illo autem die imperator exercitum, qui in Italiam iter faceret, castra movere iusserat."
- Nutting gives quidem for "some people" but surely this must be a typo for quidam?
- erat/fuit, an old problem.
The relative clause of purpose emphasizes the purpose of the people involved, the adverbial clause of purpose the intent of the action of the verb of the main clause. I think either construction is allowable in the sentence as the English probably expresses it, it's simply a matter of emphasis.

eram/fui -- it's really more a matter of aspect. Eram tends to be used as the default past for esse when no special distinction is implied. Fui is used most often as a true perfective, of the remote past, and especially of circumstances that are complete and no longer obtaining, e.g., "Ilium fuit." I think fuit is a good choice here, but erat is certainly not wrong, it simply emphasizes that this was his state in relationship to the main discourse.

"Quidam eum errare putaverunt," Yes, quidem would have to be a typo for quidam! This sentence doesn't sound very idiomatic to me, but that could be due to the limitations imposed by the vocabulary Nutting supplies.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
The Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Shenoute » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:01 pm

Many thanks to you both for your comments and corrections!

Hylander,
Thanks for your advice. I tried Bradley's Arnold in the past and honestly didn't feel that my Latin was up to it: too many words I only knew passively, the same for grammar. So much so that each exercise was taking me too much time and didn't give me enough practice. But you're right it's probably more efficient than Nutting on all levels. It's just that I thought Nutting's "baby steps" approach might be better for me to stay motivated. Maybe it will be worth giving BA a second (third?) try, maybe my Latin has improved after all since the last time I tried?

And by "Caesar, Cicero or Livy" you meant Erasmus, Justus Lipsius and Sallust, right? :oops:

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Hylander » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:25 pm

I wouldn't recommend Sallust: his Latin is deliberately archaic, idiosyncratic, and intentionally difficult (he's trying to be a Latin Thucydides). To some extent Tacitus is in the same boat, although you ought to have some experience of both Sallust and Tacitus.

I haven't read either Erasmus or Justus Lipsius, but I think they knew how to write Latin very well. But I think sticking to the classical authors who wrote and spoke the language as native speakers might be a good idea. Caesar, Cicero and Livy are the fundamental Latin prose authors, but also Seneca, who was maybe more influential for 16th and 17th century Latin authors. You can read the classical authors in small segments and spend time on analyzing their syntax while you read the others less intensively, in addition to working on composition.

It's important to focus intensively on how the classical authors string sentences or rather periods and paragraphs together. I suspect Nutting won't teach you that. But Bradley's Arnold will help.

One other piece of advice: in composition exercises, unless you are very familiar with a word, you should generally look it up in Lewis & Short (unless you have access to the Oxford Latin Dictionary) to make sure you're using it correctly. You should always do this when you have to find a word in an English-Latin dictionary.

And don't be discouraged if you don't know as many words actively as you would like. As you progress, your active knowledge of vocabulary will expand, especially if you read real Latin texts intensively at the same time.

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Shenoute » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:06 pm

Thanks for your post(s). And you're right, I probably need to focus more on Classical authors, and the "classical" Classics. I just happen to have picked up a copy of the De Officiis last week, so that should do nicely :)

(Justus Lipsius I like very much. Mid-life he shifted from Ciceronian Latin to a more "laconic" style for which he was severely criticized by many but praised by others. It created quite a stir, books were written about it by his opponents and he was even accused of corrupting both Latinity and the youth when some started marching in his footsteps. Happy days...)

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Shenoute » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:44 am

This one was in the pipes before the discussion above. I'll do a couple of Bradley's Exercises next.

Nutting, A Latin Reader, p. 210

Exercise III
5.
1. I was on the point of saying that I had seen him a few days before.
Dicturus eram me paucis ante diebus eum vidisse.

2. Did you think that they would make Marcus teacher of the boys ?
Putavistine eos Marcum puerorum magistrum facturos esse?

3. At that time there was nobody to send with us to the other river; but a man named Smith told us that there were bridges not far away.
Hoc tempore nemo erat, qui nobiscum ad alterum flumen missurus esset; vir autem nomine Faber nobis dixit pontes haud procul esse.

4. We hope that the inhabitants of the mountains are good people, and that they will not kill with
their axes the settlers, who with the greatest bravery are ready to cross the river without the army.
Speramus montium incolas (homines) bonos esse, nec interfecturos (esse) securibus colonos, qui sine exercitu fortissime flumen transire parati sunt.

5. After marching a few miles, the soldiers left a part of the wagons in a safer hiding place, which the settlers said had been discovered many years before by the wife of the commander.
Milites, cum pauca milia passuum iter fecissent, partem carrorum in latebris tutioribus reliquerunt, quas coloni dixerunt multis ante annis ab uxore ducis inventas esse.

6. "Did you say that you liked Columbus, boys?" asked Claudia. "Do you want me to tell you another story about him?" "I said that I liked Columbus," answered Marcus; "but to-day we prefer to hear the story you were just now reading." "I was reading about a man who was called Cabot," said Claudia. "He sailed with his son across the sea to unknown shores, hoping that he would thus reach Asia. A new part of America at any rate was discovered by him ; but he believed that he had seen the coast of Asia. Don't tear the book, Quintus ; to-morrow I will tell you another story."

"Dixistisne vos Columbum amare, pueri?" inquit Claudia. "Vultisne me alteram de eo fabulam narrare?" "Dixi me Columbum amare" inquit Marcus; "sed hodie malumus eam audire, quam modo legebas." "De viro nomine Cabote legebam" inquit Claudia. "Cum se ita perventurum ad Asiam speraret, trans mare ad litora ignota cum filio navigavit. Certe pars Americae nova ab eo inventa est; ille autem credebat se litus Asiae vidisse. Librum discerpere nolite, Quinte; cras alteram fabulam vobis narrabo."

Questions/problems
- qui nobiscum ad alterum flumen missurus esset, maybe simply missus esset?
- nec interfecturos securibus colonos, the -os...-os structure doesn't seem too clear to me but that seems to be what the English and the grammar introduced so far are calling for

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Hylander » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:21 pm

3. "nobody to send with us" -- this must be translated by a passive verb: the individual would not perform the act of sending but rather would himself be sent, and "send" is transltive. Here the English needs to be analyzed before tackling the Latin. Also the verb tense/mood is simply imperfect subjunctive. No need for a periphrastic. In primary sequence it would be present subjunctive: nemo est qui nobiscum mittatur; in secondary sequence: nemo erat qui nobiscum mitteretur.

5. dicebant is probably better than dixerunt.

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Shenoute » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:50 pm

Oh, of course! Taking the -urus form as passive in meaning, that was a silly one (and downhill from there to the mistake in the sequence of tenses).

Thanks!

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Shenoute » Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:37 pm

After going through the first couple of lessons in Bradley's Arnold, I think I'll stick with Nutting for the time being. I'm using composition as a tool to gain/solidify knowledge about syntax as much as about vocabulary and at my level, BA does not give enough practice with vocabulary to be really useful. With 50-100 new words in each lesson, there's now way for me to make the whole thing pleasant enough at the moment (even if of course I know most of these words passively). BA is after all a more advanced textbook and right now I see more gain in using Nutting which was designed for more elementary classes. For instance how many times have I stopped while reading a text to mentally check the meaning of polliceor even if I must have encountered the word hundreds of time? Only after using it many times in Nutting has it become part of the vocabulary I can take in stride without thinking.

Nutting, A Latin Reader, p. 212

Exercise IV
7.
1. Let us hope that one of the soldiers will take the other boy to his mother.
Speremus unum e militibus alterum puerum matri ducturum esse.
2. While this was being said to the general, the braver settlers were on the point of breaking down the bridge with huge rocks.
Dum haec imperatori dicuntur, fortiores coloni pontem magnis saxis fracturi erant.
3. Come, boys, into the fields. Don't think that I am going to allow you to dally at home.
Venite, pueri, in agros. Nolite putare me vos domi morari passurum esse.
4. A few hours afterward horses were given to one of the sailors to take home.
Paucis post horis equi uni e nautis dati sunt, qui (eos) domum duceret.
5. Had you realized that there was no one to call the boys ?
Senseratisne neminem esse, qui pueros vocaret?

8.
1. In those days the settlers usually took their arms with them into the fields; for they were always in fear of an attack from bitter enemies. They certainly were brave men. Their leader was named Smith.
Illis temporibus, coloni arma secum in agros ferre solebant; semper enim impetum acrium hostium timebant. Illi certe viri fortes erant. Dux Faber appellabatur.
2. Marcus says that America was discovered by Columbus; but many people think that another man discovered it many years before.
Marcus dicit Americam a Columbo inventam fuisse; multi autem alium multis ante annis (eam) invenisse.
3. I believe that the king's son used to make one of the settlers leader against the Indians.
Credo filium regis unum e colonis ducem contra Indos facere solitum esse.

9. "I have come to tell you another story, Marcus," said Claudia. "Is your brother at home to-day ?" " Quintus has gone to the shore to see a great ship that has been broken by the waves," replied Marcus ; "but I want to hear the story. About whom have you been reading?" "I was just now reading about a man named Smith," said Claudia. "He sailed often from Europe to America, and once was captured by Frenchmen, who compelled him to remain with them many days ; however, he at length reached home safely. But look! I think I see Quintus coming."

"Veni, Marce, ut tibi aliam fabulam narrarem", inquit Claudia. "Estne frater domi hodie?" "Quintus ad litus iit, ut magnam navem fluctibus fractam videret" inquit Marcus; "ego autem fabulam audire volo. De quo viro legisti?" "De viro nomine Fabro modo legebam" inquit Claudia. "Saepe ex Europa ad Americam navigavit, et olim a Gallis captus est, qui eum multos dies secum manere coacti sunt; postremo autem incolumis domum pervenit. Sed aspice! Puto me Quintum venientem videre."

Questions/problems
- not entirely satisfied with how I dealt with the accusatives of the indirect discourse in sentences 7.1 and 8.3. Changing word-order in these would probably result in something clearer (especially 8.3)

As a supplementary exercise (and following recommandations by Hylander) I tried to rework some of these into coordinated clauses. The result probably falls short of impressive but it certainly feels like an valuable exercise.
8.1
Illis temporibus, coloni arma secum in agros ferre solebant; semper enim impetum acrium hostium timebant. Illi certe viri fortes erant. Dux Faber appellabatur.
> Illis temporibus coloni, quamquam viri fortes erant, quibus vir nomine Faber erat dux, arma tamen, quia semper impetum acrium hostium timebant, secum in agros ferre solebant.
> Illis temporibus coloni, quamquam viri fortes erant, viro nomine Fabro ducente, arma tamen, semper enim impetum acrium hostium timentes, secum in agros ferre solebant.

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Hylander » Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:44 pm

7.1: better ad matrem I think.

With regard to accusatives in indirect discourse, we manage to make ourselves clear in English with very little noun inflection. Word order and context do the trick. The same can be done in Latin where both subject and object must be accusative.

8.3: Credo filium regis solitum esse unum e colonis contra Indos ducem facere.

Your rewriting 8.1 is a good idea. The three items of information -- (1) arms in the fields, (2) brave men but (3) fearing the enemies -- belong together, the main one being arms in the fields, to which you rightly assign the main verb. The information that their leader was named Smith is somewhat of a separate item, but could be folded in as a relative clause (better than an abl. abs., I think, because that would imply that Smith was specifically leading them into the fields, when it's just a matter of general leadership of the colony). Put the relative clause right after coloni, and don't separate arma from the verb of which it's an object by an additional item of information.

I would more or less isolate the information about smith at the beginning.

How about this?

Illis temporibus coloni, quibus dux vir nomine Faber [erat could be omitted], quamquam fortissimi, semper tamen impetum acrium hostium timentes, arma secum in agros ferre solebant.

I'm open to criticism. No guarantee that this is perfect, or that I've caught all mistakes.

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Shenoute » Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:39 pm

Hylander wrote:7.1: better ad matrem I think.
Ah yes, I remember making this mistake several times when doing the Primer's exercises.
Hylander wrote:8.3: Credo filium regis solitum esse unum e colonis contra Indos ducem facere.
Moving the verb between the two accusatives does indeed seem very efficient at makings things clearer.
Hylander wrote:(better than an abl. abs., I think, because that would imply that Smith was specifically leading them into the fields, when it's just a matter of general leadership of the colony). Put the relative clause right after coloni, and don't separate arma from the verb of which it's an object by an additional item of information. (...)

Illis temporibus coloni, quibus dux vir nomine Faber [erat could be omitted], quamquam fortissimi, semper tamen impetum acrium hostium timentes, arma secum in agros ferre solebant.
I added the abl. absolute as an afterthought, and a way to play with more constructions, but couldn't quite pinpoint why it didn't feel as natural as the relative, thanks for your comment about it.
Your sentence certainly looks good to me :D I especially notice/like the use of fortissimi and the fact that moving the quamquam clause closer to the tamen clause, together with removing the verb in the quamquam clause, makes the opposition more salient and the whole sentence looking much more "alive" to me.

Thanks for all your comments!

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by mwh » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:53 pm

In those days the settlers usually took their arms with them into the fields; for they were always in fear of an attack from bitter enemies. They certainly were brave men. Their leader was named Smith.

Hylander’s version certainly ties it all neatly together. Might quamquam … tamen be overdoing the supposed opposition, though, and do we have to make a single smooth period of it? I’d be tempted to stay closer to the given sequence, maybe reshuffling only the brave men bit:

Illis temporibus coloni, qui certe erant viri fortes, arma in agros secum ferre solebant; semper enim metuebant ne hostes infestissimi impetum facerent. dux eorum erat Faber quidam.

But please criticize. I’m no longer comfortable with Latin.

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Shenoute » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:58 pm

Looks good to me. Having a relative immediately after coloni, like Hylander and you did, definitely seems to make the whole sentence easier to construct.

Nutting, A Latin Reader, p. 216

Exercise V
10.
1. Did you think that all the Indians would escape by running?
Putavistine omnes Indos currendo evasuros esse?
2. The king has many children, but I believe that he has found no one to teach them.
Multi liberi sunt regi, credo autem eum neminem, qui eos doceretur, invenisse.
3. The natives called the island Cuba, and that name has remained these many years.
Incolae insulam Cubam appellabant, et id nomen hos multos annos mansit.
4. While the horses were being taken across the river on a ship, two of the soldiers quickly seized an open boat, and another brought the arms.
Dum equi trans flumen nave vehebantur, duo e militibus scapham celeriter ceperunt, et alius arma attulit.
5. Either at that time or a few days earlier, the troops of our general, much disturbed by this happening, were on the point of attacking the town.
Aut illo tempore aut paucis ante diebus, copiae imperatoris nostri, hac re vehementer commotae, urbem adoriturae erant.

11.
1. Don't fear the smaller waves.
Minores fluctus nolite timere.
2. We had axes and daggers; but while the Indians were crossing the hill, we were marching to the river, that there might be some one there to guard the longer bridge.
Secures ac sicae nobis erant; dum autem Indi collem transeunt, ad flumen iter faciebamus, ut ei, qui longiorem pontem custodiant, ibi erunt.
3. The boys were busy reading and writing ; but one of the girls told us a story about a man named Caesar, who once sailed to England and captured a part of that island.
Pueri legendo ac scribendo occupabantur; una autem e puellis fabulam de viro nomine Caesare nobis narravit, qui olim ad Britanniam navigavit partemque illius insulae cepit.
4. In the winter time Caesar used to stay in camp, but in summer he always would march many miles across mountains and rivers to attack the towns of the enemy.
Hieme Caesar se castris tenere solebat, aestate autem semper multa milia passuum trans montes fluminaque iter faciebat, ut oppida hostium adoriretur.

12. "I hope that Claudia will come to-day," said Quintus to Marcus. " For I was not at home yesterday, and so I did not hear the story about the man named Smith."I have heard a new story," replied Marcus. " My father told me that a man called Hudson set out from Europe, and that the island, where New York now is, was discovered by him. A little later Hudson came again to America, and there found a great unknown sea ; but when the sailors realized that they had used up nearly all the food, they deserted their commander, and many people believe that he died in a skiff on the open sea."

"Spero Claudiam hodie venturam esse" inquit Quintus Marco. "Heri enim domi non eram, itaque fabulam de viro nomine Fabro non audiebam." "Ego fabulam novam audivi" inquit Marcus. "Pater mihi dixit virum nomine Hudsonem ex Europa profectum esse et insulam, ubi nunc Novum Eboracum est, ab eo inventam esse. Paulo post Hudso ad Americam rediit ibique magnum mare ignotum invenit; nautae autem, cum se paene totum cibum consumpsisse sensissent, ducem reliquerunt, et multi credunt eum in scapha in mare apertum mortuum esse.


Questions/problems
- 11.2 custodiant/custodirent? I think this clause depends on erunt so I went for custodiant, but I still have some doubt (kind of the same thing in 10.2 I notice now)
- 12. consumpsisse sensissent looks a bit heavy but it seems to be what the rules call for...

Hylander
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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Hylander » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:31 pm

10.2: doceretur could be doceat. See A&G 485a. doceretur would suggest "he found no one . . . "

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.04.0001

10.3: mansit should be manet. It still remained and still remains. mansit would be "it remained" but would imply it was eventually changed, I think.

11.2 transibant . . . ut ibi essent qui longiorem pontem custodirent {no ei]. Ut clause requires subjunctive in secondary sequence here.

non audiebam should probably be non audivi.

in mari aperto

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Shenoute » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:46 am

Hylander wrote:10.2: doceretur could be doceat. See A&G 485a. doceretur would suggest "he found no one . . . "
Thanks! (I'll blame this one on my imperfect grasp of English and the subtleties of "found"/"has found") :)
Hylander wrote:10.3: mansit should be manet. It still remained and still remains. mansit would be "it remained" but would imply it was eventually changed, I think.
Yes, when writing I went for the idea "it's not called that anymore" which is strange in retrospect since the sentence is about Cuba.
Hylander wrote:11.2 transibant . . . ut ibi essent qui longiorem pontem custodirent {no ei]. Ut clause requires subjunctive in secondary sequence here.
There was a note instructing to use "the plural of is" but I agree that I don't really see the need for it. And erunt/essent...how silly!
Hylander wrote:non audiebam should probably be non audivi.
Thanks! It seemed a bit strange to use imperfect there and I realize now that I misunderstood the note saying that this tense should be used here (it referred in fact to the making of a relative clause "viro, qui Faber appellabatur,").
Hylander wrote:in mari aperto
Thanks!

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Shenoute » Sat Feb 10, 2018 8:26 pm

Nutting, A Latin Reader, p. 221

Exercise VI
13.
1. Since this skiff is usually left on the shore, let's call a sailor to take us to the island.
Cum ea scapha in litore relinqui soleat, nautam vocemus, qui nos ad insulam vehat.

2. I can see one of our sailors ; but I think that the other skiff has already crossed the river.
Unum e nostris nautis video; sed alteram scapham iam flumen transiisse arbitror.

3. While the forces of the enemy were firing the town, some settlers were bringing food in wagons to the fort.
Dum hostium copiae urbem incendunt, coloni quidam carris cibum castello vehebant.

4. By lying on the ground, the sailors thought that they would deceive the enemy.
Humi iacendo, nautae se hostem elusuros (esse) arbitrati sunt.

5. Although no farmer had a horse, do you yet believe that the Indians will not capture their wives?
Quamquam nulli agricolae equus erat, creditisne tamen Indos uxores eorum non capturos?


14.
1. A few days before, the same soldiers were on the point of crossing the mountains ; but do not imagine that the army wanted to desert its leader.
Paucis ante diebus eidem milites montes transituri erant; nolite autem putare exercitum velle ducem suum relinquere.

2. Although a man named Curio had been appointed commander, still at that time there was no one to provide grain for the army which had escaped across the river.
Quamquam vir nomine Curio dux factus erat, illo tamen tempore nemo erat qui frumentum daret exercitui, qui trans flumen evaserat.

3. Since you have made a boy your guide, guard your horses well. We prefer another leader.
Cum puerum ducem feceritis, equos vestros diligenter custodite. Alium ducem malumus.

4. On all sides the Indians, who had arms, now came together more readily to attack the fort.
Undique Indi, quibus arma erant, iam libentius convenerunt, ut castellum adorirentur.

15. "Come into the garden," said Marcus; "to-day I will tell you a story." "Good," said Claudia and Quintus; "let's hear it." "Once," said Marcus, "there was a very brave captain named Standish. He had sailed from Europe to New England along with a few settlers, and during the following winter his wife died. A few months later he thought that he was going to marry a pretty girl, but she preferred another man." "What was the girl's name?" inquired Quintus. "I don't know," answered Marcus. "Do you, Claudia?" "I think that her name was Priscilla," replied Claudia.

"In hortum venite" inquit Marcus; "Ego hodie fabulam vobis narrabo." "Optime" inquiunt Claudia et Quintus; "audiamus." "Olim" inquit Marcus "legatus fortissimus nomine Standisius erat. Ex Europa ad Novam Britanniam una cum paucis colonis navigaverat, atque hieme proxima uxor eius mortua est. Paucis post mensibus se quandam puellam pulchram in matrimonium ducturum (esse) arbitratus est, illa autem alium virum maluit." "Quo nomine puella appellabatur?" inquit Quintus. "Nescio" inquit Marcus. "Tune scis, Claudia?" "Puto nomen ei Prissillam fuisse" inquit Claudia.

Questions/problems
- 14.1 Is velle correct? I took the English as "do not imagine that the army was wanting to...".

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Hylander » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:21 pm

13

3. incendebant
in castellum;
quidam could be nonnulli.

4. arbitrabantur. Perfect arbitrati sunt would mean something like "decided" or "rendered a judgment".

14.

voluisse, since it's past in relation to the main verb. See A&G sec. 584a:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.04.0001

deserere might be better than relinquere in a military context. relinquere is closer to "leave behind", "abandon".

15. Again arbitrabatur is probably better in rendering the English. arbitratus est would be closer to "he decided to marry", I think. Also, I think I would translate "she preferred" as malebat. To me, at least, maluit is closer to "she chose another husband in preference to him." In this case, the story is continuing, so imperfect seems better.

Priscillam, a Latin name, after all.

Nutting is very, shall we say, Anglocentric, with savage Indians and brave English colonists. This is based on a poem by H. W. Longfellow, The Courtship of Miles Standish, that used to be known to every American school-child. Not to spoil the story, but Miles Standish is too shy to woo Priscilla directly, so he enlists his friend John Alden, who happens to be the man Priscilla really wants to marry, to speak on his (Standish's) behalf. Priscilla's punch-line: "Speak for yourself, John Alden." She gets her man.

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Shenoute » Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:19 pm

Thanks once again for your many comments, I appreciate it!
Hylander wrote:13
3. incendebant
Hmm, one of the previous lessons introduced dum+ Present Indicative "to describe a past action that was in progress in progress when something else took place" (p. 212). Do you think both present and imperfect are possible here or did Nutting make a mistake?
Hylander wrote:14.
voluisse, since it's past in relation to the main verb. See A&G sec. 584a:
I really have trouble with this, I'll make sure to peruse A&G carefully (but maybe my trouble is more with the way English uses "wanted").
Hylander wrote:Priscillam, a Latin name, after all.
It was given as Prissilla in the vocabulary and Nutting uses it in the readings also so it doesn't seem to be a typo. I don't know where he got it from but I'm glad to see I'm not the only one it surprises :-)
Hylander wrote:Nutting is very, shall we say, Anglocentric, with savage Indians and brave English colonists. This is based on a poem by H. W. Longfellow, The Courtship of Miles Standish, that used to be known to every American school-child. Not to spoil the story, but Miles Standish is too shy to woo Priscilla directly, so he enlists his friend John Alden, who happens to be the man Priscilla really wants to marry, to speak on his (Standish's) behalf. Priscilla's punch-line: "Speak for yourself, John Alden." She gets her man.
Yes, so far the good Indians have mostly been the ones who warned the colonists before an attack took place. Not acceptable by today's standards but better, I guess, than what Sheridan had to say about "good Indians"... Standish's story is indeed given as a reading in the first part of the book ("Nonne pro te dicturus es?"). Thanks for mentioning the poem, I will read it and hope that I enjoy it as much as Dover Beach!

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Hylander » Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:43 pm

incendebant -- you are right about this. A&G 556.

The Courtship is not on the same level as Dover Beach. It's a longish narrative poem in . . . dactylic hexameters! Longfellow was a descendant of John Alden and Priscilla, née Mullins or Mullens.

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Re: Nutting, First Latin Reader

Post by Shenoute » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:33 pm

I checked the Courtship and it is longish so it might have to wait a bit before I can tackle it. But I read bits of it and I quite liked it. I didn't know it was a family affair.

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