Passage from De Finibus

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Nesrad
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Passage from De Finibus

Post by Nesrad » Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:46 pm

Ne illud quidem est consentaneum, ut,
si, cum tria genera bonorum sint, quae sententia est
Peripateticorum, eo beatior quisque sit, quo sit corpo-
ris aut externis bonis plenior, ut hoc idem adproban-
dum sit nobis, ut, qui plura habeat ea, quae in corpore
magni aestimantur, sit beatior. (Source)

As the double rainbow guy put it: What does it MEAN?

Gotta love the triple conjuctions "ut si cum" followed by two more ut's in the same sentence.

Hylander
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Re: Passage from De Finibus

Post by Hylander » Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:42 am

"Not even that [proposition] can be agreed on, [namely] that, since there are three kinds of goods, which is the opinion of the Peripatetics, any person is happier to the extent he has more of the goods of the body or external goods, which would have the the result that [ut] we must likewise approve of this [i.e., if we agreed to the first proposition, we would be compelled as a consequence of the previous proposition to approve of this proposition, namely,] that whoever has more of those things that are highly valued in the body is happier."

I think this is more or less the meaning. I'm not sure whether quae sententia est Peripateticorum modifies cum tria genera bonorum sint, or eo beatior quisque sit, quo sit corporis aut externis bonis plenior.

ut hoc idem adprobandum sit nobis is a result clause. The other two ut clauses would be classified by Allen & Greenough as purpose clauses:
[563]d. Verbs of determining, decreeing, resolving, bargaining, take either the Subjunctive or the Infinitive:—
cōnstituerant ut L. Bēstia quererētur (Sall. Cat. 43), they had determined that Lucius Bestia should complain.
“proeliō supersedēre statuit ” (B. G. 2.8 ) , he determined to refuse battle.
“dē bonīs rēgis quae reddī cēnsuerant ” (Liv. 2.5) , about the king's goods, which they had decreed should be restored.
dēcernit utī cōnsulēs dīlēctum habeant (Sall. Cat. 34), decrees that the consuls shall hold a levy.
“ēdictō nē quis iniussū pūgnāret ” (Liv. 5.19) , having commanded that none should fight without orders.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.04.0001

Nesrad
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Re: Passage from De Finibus

Post by Nesrad » Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:31 am

Nice try, problem is I can't understand your translation any better than the Latin :)

I think the first ut is actually repeated as the last ut and he's basically saying: Nor would it be fitting for us Stoics to accept the Peripatetics' teaching that a man is so much the happier if he's full of bodily goods (on the idea that there are 3 types of goods).

He just repeats the part about bodily goods after the last ut.

That's my theory, but to be honest this is one of the worst passages from C. that I've ever read, and I think its inherently unintelligible. I wonder if he might be actually quoting Cato verbatim, or if he's poking fun at the Stoics for talking this way.

mwh
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Re: Passage from De Finibus

Post by mwh » Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:33 pm

Well, I think you’re both wrong. We can’t ignore the si, as Hylander’s version does. So where is the verb of the (first) ut clause? The ut is duplicated, but not by the last ut, which picks up hoc idem just as the first one picked up illud, but by the previous one, ut hoc idem adprobandum sit nobis. With the piled on si cum clauses the sentence was threatening to get away from him, and this ut is resumptive, reprising the opening one and getting the sentence back on track. The final bit zooms in on the particular part of the Peripatetic doctrine that “we” (Stoics?) can’t accept.

Victor
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Re: Passage from De Finibus

Post by Victor » Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:09 pm

The second ut must be resumptive of the first, yes.

Using Hylander's words as far as possible, this is my understanding of the passage:

Not even this can be agreed on, [namely] that if, since there are three kinds of goods (which is the opinion of the Peripatetics), each man is (or "were") happier to the extent he has more of the goods of the body or external goods, [that] we must likewise approve of this, [namely] that whoever has more of those things that are highly valued in the body is happier."

It's hardly a model of clarity, and it's not just the ut that is repetitive.

Nesrad
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Re: Passage from De Finibus

Post by Nesrad » Wed Oct 12, 2016 6:21 pm

Here's another one:

Vidit Homerus probari fabulam non posse, si cantiunculis tantus irretitus vir teneretur; scientiam pollicentur, quam non erat mirum sapientiae cupido patria esse cariorem. (Source)

Just wondering what the heck "sapientiae cupido" is doing in this sentence. I think it might be a gloss.

anphph
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Re: Passage from De Finibus

Post by anphph » Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:11 pm

cupido (cúpido) is dative here, not nominative (cupído).

They promise wisdom, and we shouldn't marvel at the fact that to someone who loves wisdom would love it more than he does his fatherland.

Victor
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Re: Passage from De Finibus

Post by Victor » Wed Oct 12, 2016 7:28 pm

anphph wrote:cupido (cúpido) is dative here, not nominative (cupído).

They promise wisdom, and we shouldn't marvel at the fact that to someone who loves wisdom would love it more than he does his fatherland.
I think we need to preserve the distinction Cicero makes between scientia and sapientia.
"They promise knowledge, which it was not surprising is/was dearer to a lover of wisdom than his own country."

anphph
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Re: Passage from De Finibus

Post by anphph » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:17 pm

You're absolutely right, I speed-read through it.
They promise knowledge, and we shouldn't marvel at the fact that to someone who loves wisdom would love that more than he does his fatherland.

Nesrad
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Re: Passage from De Finibus

Post by Nesrad » Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:23 pm

anphph wrote:cupido (cúpido) is dative here, not nominative (cupído).
Great, never thought of that. Thanks for answering!

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