Ben-Hur Translation Page 10: Battle at Sea

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bedwere
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Ben-Hur Translation Page 10: Battle at Sea

Post by bedwere » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:02 am

Many thanks for your help!

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All translated pages so far

The pirates number nearly as many ships as the Romans, and meet the attack with bold fury. Below the deck the slaves with one exception pray for a pirate victory that may bring them freedom!


Prædones quidem, qui tam fere multas naves habent quam Romani, sustinent impetum furentes audacia. Sub ponte autem, omnes uno excepto remiges ita precantur illorum victoriam ut ipsi liberentur.

Οἱ μὲν λῃσταί, ἔχοντες σχεδὸν τοσαύτας ναῦς ὅσας οἱ Ῥωμαῖοι, ὑπομένουσιν εἰσβολὴν μαινόμενοι τῇ τολμῇ. Ὑπὸ δὲ τοῦ καταστρώματος πάντες πλὴν ἑνὸς οἱ ὑπηρέται εὔχονται ἐκείνους νικήσειν ὥστε αὐτοὶ ἐλευθερωθήσονται.

Make the sea red with Roman blood!

More fireballs! We’ll roast the rats aboard the ships!

Cruore Romanorum rubefacite mare!
Plus falaricarum ferte! Torrebimus illos sordidos in navibus!

Αἵματι τῶν Ῥωμαίων ἐρυθρὰν ποιεῖτε τὴν θάλασσαν.
Πλείονα πυροβόλα φέρετε. Φρύξομεν τοὺς ῥυπαροὺς ἐν ταῖς ναυσίν.

But as the first pirate craft is enveloped in flame, another brings certain doom to the Roman ship, ramming her at the water line.

Sed dum primum prædonum navigium uritur, aliud vero Romanorum navi, infligendo in partem vicinam aquæ, manifestam fert perniciem.

Ἀλλὰ τοῦ πρώτου τῶν λῃστῶν πλοίου φλεγομένου, ἄλλο δὴ τῇ τῶν Ῥωμαίων νηῒ ἔμβαλον ἐπὶ τὸ πρὸς τῇ θαλάσσῃ μέρος ἐμφανῆ φέρει διαφθοράν.

Slaughter the Roman dogs! Let none live to leap into the sea!

Cædite despuendos Romanos! Ne siritis ullum saliare vivum in mare!

Σφάζετε τοὺς καταπτύστους Ῥωμαίους. Μὴ ἐάσητε μηδένα πηδῆσαι ζῶντα εἰς τὴν θάλασσαν.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 10: Battle at Sea

Post by LateStarter » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:24 am

Certainly "Let none live to leap into the sea!" is not equivalent to the Latin " Nemo supervivat ut saliat in mare!" or the Greek "περιβιούτω" (whatever that verb is). The former is a direct command, imperative or prohibition, the Latin and Greek are respectively the third person jussive subjunctive and the third person imperative. You have translated the English as if it reads "May no man," which it does not. The Latin should be either "Ne dēsierītis..." or "Dēsinite..." (though more probably the former). Similarly with the Greek. The moods of 'Caedite' and 'Σφάζετε,' immediately preceding, should be continued.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 10: Battle at Sea

Post by bedwere » Tue Dec 15, 2015 6:22 pm

Thank you again! I changed them to:


Ne desieritis ullum supervivere ut saliat in mare!

Μὴ ἐάσητε μηδένα περιβιοῦν ὥστε πηδᾶν εἰς θάλασσαν.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 10: Battle at Sea

Post by bedwere » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:09 am

Latine
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Ἑλληνιστί
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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 10: Battle at Sea

Post by mwh » Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:51 am

ὥστε αὐτοὶ ἐλευθεροῦνται. Fut. not pres., ελευθερωθήσονται (or -σοιντο), or e.g. ελευϙεροι γενησονται, or use ινα w/ subj.

ἐρυθραίνετε: ερυθραν ποιεῖτε

Πλείονα πυροβόλα. Add φερετε.

μῦας: μύας or μῦς

νησίν: ναυσίν

manifestum est perniciem navi Romanorum ab alio ferri: Why not ab alio pernicies certa fertur? or alium perniciem certam fert?
Then infligendo rather than infligens?
I don’t know how to say at the water line. (infligendo ei) iuxta aquam?, in partem vicinam aquae?

Ἀλλὰ τοῦ μὲν πρώρου τῶν λῃστῶν πλοίου φλεγομένου, δῆλον δ' ἔστιν: Del. μεν and δε, clauses not parallel.

πρωρου: πρωτου

δῆλον δ' ἔστιν ὅτι ἄλλο διαφθορὰν τῇ τῶν Ῥωμαίων νηΐ φέρει: Again, why not simply αλλο διαφθοραν φερει εμφανῆ …?
Reorganize? αλλο (δη) τη Ρωμαιων νηι εμβαλον επι το … μερος εμφανη φερει διαφθοραν.

Cædite canes Romanos! I assumed you were taking “rats” literally above, though I can’t imagine anyone would “roast mice” except for the purpose of eating them. However that may be, “Roman dogs” would surely refer to dogs, not men. Same in the Greek. Better substitute a term of abuse.

desieritis: can the compound be used so? I’d have expected si(e)ritis.

Ne desieritis ullum supervivere ut saliat in mare!
Μὴ ἐάσητε μηδένα περιβιοῦν ὥστε πηδᾶν εἰς θάλασσαν.
Reads somewhat ridiculous. Better Ne siritis ullum saliare vivum in mare and Μὴ ἐάσητε μηδένα πηδῆσαι ζῶντα εἰς την θάλασσαν. —Or reinstate what I now see must have been your original version.

Hope this helps. It still reads too much like a word by word translation, but there are good things in your versions and it’s getting better I think. Either that or I’m getting worse.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 10: Battle at Sea

Post by bedwere » Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:24 pm

Michael, would Κυνικοὶ Ῥωμαῖοι work as an offense? Or shall I go for something completely unrelated?

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 10: Battle at Sea

Post by mwh » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:45 pm

No that would suggest philosophical orientation. Dog connotes shameless behavior. (Think Helen as well as Cynics.)
Something like τους Ρωμαίους καταπτύστους perhaps.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 10: Battle at Sea

Post by Paul Derouda » Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:10 pm

Wouldn't τους κυνας Ρωμαιους do? LSJ seems say that κυων is used as an offense.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 10: Battle at Sea

Post by mwh » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:33 am

Not even in Homer I think. As a term of abuse it needs a certain context. Outside of Homer definitely not, I’d say, and the connotation is wrong. I see no support in LSJ, just the reverse. I’m not totally sold on τους Ρωμαίους καταπτύστους as capturing the sense, but I rather like it and τους κυνας Ρωμαιους certainly doesn’t improve on it. When it comes to metaphor, literal translation is almost always bad.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 10: Battle at Sea

Post by bedwere » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:15 am

I got rid of rats, dogs, and all sort of critters. :D

Since rats are filthy animals, I thought of using sordidos/ῥυπαροὺς to give the idea.

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 10: Battle at Sea

Post by mwh » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:40 am

Perfect!—or would be if it referred to the pirates not the Romans. Exactly what did the writer mean by it? Is it from the You dirty rat era? What clues does the rest of the comic give? Seems we need some historical and textual research here before we can hope to translate it correctly. It needs to be subjected to the same depth of investigation as locutions in the New Testament. Where can we find commentaries on this so problematic text? :P

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 10: Battle at Sea

Post by bedwere » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:44 am

Michael, I think we should write a proposal and you be the PI. :D
What agency do you guys in classics plead with?

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Re: Ben-Hur Translation Page 10: Battle at Sea

Post by mwh » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:32 am

Classicists have gotten grants for writing about Buffy, and also no doubt Ben-Hur, the book and the movies; I expect there are already applications in the works for the upcoming movie. So it's feasible. But count me out.

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